12:05:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Judge Academy first week for August. It’s a great to be back here. We took a little bit of time off last week, so that folks could experience Gen con We had a number of folks out there so including our guest today who’s actually still in Indianapolis. So it’s my pleasure. Introduce you, Sam Lewis is a level two, judge from California, Sam go ahead and tell people a little bit about yourself.
12:06:13 pm – Sam Lewis:
You, yeah. Yeah. Hi, everybody. My name is Sam. I’m Meltu, I certified You, yeah. Yeah. My name is Sam. My name is Sam. I’m Meltu, I certified You, yeah. Hi everybody. My name is Sam. I’m Meltu, I certified as a judge and 2017 started getting on the GP circuit like late 2017. Judged a lot of GPS, a lot of magic You. Hi everybody. My name is Sam. I’m Meltu, I certified as a judge and 2017 started getting on the GP circuit like late 2017. Judged a lot of GPS, a lot of magic You. Yeah. My name is Sam. My name is Sam. 2017 started getting on the GP 2017 started getting on the GP of GPS, a lot of magic You. Yeah. Hi everybody. My name is Sam. I’m Meltu, I certified as a judge and 2017 started getting on the GP circuit like late 2017. Judged a lot of GPS, a lot of magic You, yeah. Yeah. Hi, everybody. My name is Sam. I’m Meltu, I certified as a judge and 2017 started getting on the GP circuit like late 2017. Judged a lot of GPS, a lot of magic fests fell in love with the community. Um and I have kind of just like Satan love and kept up with it ever since. As of a couple of weeks ago, I’m the new events manager for nerd rage gaming. So if you’re interested in a tournaments in the Midwest, I’m one of the people that’s involved there and really stoked to be bringing that tournament series as well.
12:06:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
And I was actually just a couple of weeks ago as they had judge of NRG Chicago, which Sam ran to show manager and did an excellent job. So we’re happy to have him on here to talk about some mist triggers, which is one of the more unique aspects of tournament policy that we’ve got in the IPG. So Sam, let’s just go ahead and jump right into it. Go ahead and get started here.
12:07:11 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yeah, awesome. So first really quickly, I’m going to give kind of a like disclaimer, which is that this presentation is super heavily themed towards Miss Triggers in the Infraction Procedure Guide, which means that we’re not going to be covering a lot of how you should be handling this at regular RL at your local fnms and stuff. Um, we’ll make a like quick aside to touch on that more but the short version is that at Fnms The whole like the default is to not apply. The trigger just isn’t there? And this is super flexible based on the desired atmosphere at your regular RL events, We’ll talk about it more, but know that this presentation is set up with the infraction procedure guide in mind. So we’re talking competitive and professional Ariel events.
12:07:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. So and and it’s the Miss Trigger policy in the IPG. So specifically for competitive Ariel events is It’s really different from how a lot of the other policy is handled like the way we handle game rules, violations, and carried errors and other things like That is very different fundamentally from how we handle this triggers in a lot of ways, which is why it makes sense, to devote. Some time to specifically addressing, Okay, what’s the deal with Miss Triggers at competitive? Why is it? Why is it important? And how is it different from how we handle everything else?
12:08:32 pm – Sam Lewis:
yeah, totally, which actually is a great thing to start off on is Just one of the things that makes Miss triggers so unique is that as everybody knows? When you’re playing game of magic, you have an obligation to make sure that the game state is correct, even
12:08:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:08:50 pm – Sam Lewis:
Even if it’s not an effect that you control, you know, you are obligated to make sure that your opponent gains their life from Life. Link, for example, you’re obligated to make sure that your opponent’s four five time ago if actually deals for damage. Instead of only three, if your opponent thinks that it should only deal three but Miss triggers are the one thing where your opponent can. miss make a mistake, you know, miss the trigger and you are allowed to Just let that be missed. You never have an obligation to remind your opponent about their triggers, and that is super unique to
12:09:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:09:21 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:09:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
yep, and it and players will misunderstand this a lot because players are Largely don’t understand exactly what a trigger is and isn’t so it can they can misapply this in a lot of ways. It’s like, Well, I don’t have to tell them because that’s a trigger, right? And it’s no, no, it’s not.
12:09:40 pm – Sam Lewis:
Exactly. Yeah, that’s are my little subheading, everything. You always need to know about everyone’s favorite. Clear always correctly, used word, everybody always says, trigger.
12:09:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
Always correctly, used.
12:09:49 pm – Sam Lewis:
they mean trigger nobody, nobody ever says trigger.
12:09:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:09:53 pm – Sam Lewis:
When they actually mean static ability or You know, just Activated ability. Everybody always says trigger and actually means it
12:10:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yes, and every single time.
12:10:03 pm – Sam Lewis:
um, true. So with that said, what is a trigger? We’ve just got like a nice little snip from the comprehensive rules here. Cricket abilities. They have a trigger condition and an effect. They’re always going to be written as when, whenever or at that is, like, your big giveaway. That something is a trigger is the word when, whenever or at, and then there will be some sort of condition and then in effect and then, if there are some special instructions like, A triggers only once per turn or something like that, those will come after as well. So notably there are some things
12:10:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:10:38 pm – Sam Lewis:
where the the whole sentence won’t start with. Whenever we’re at. There might be something that says, you know, Make a copy of a creature exile, that token at the beginning of the next end, step that is setting up a
12:10:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:10:52 pm – Sam Lewis:
delayed trigger, but that at the beginning of the next end, step that is silly trigger.
12:10:56 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, that’s silly.
12:10:56 pm – Sam Lewis:
That’ll happen. Then.
12:10:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
That’s still the trigger condition. Even if it doesn’t coming directly at the front of it. Those are I’ve noticed those are becoming fewer and far and father between these days they’ve definitely been getting better at templating triggers more consistently across effects.
12:11:11 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yeah. Yeah, um, Yeah. So now we know what a trigger is now for the second part of for the second part of Yeah. Yeah, um, yeah. So now we know what a trigger is. Now for the second part of Miss Trigger, what makes something be missed?
12:11:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
You could probably turn this light
12:11:22 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:11:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
into an entire presentation on its own.
12:11:26 pm – Sam Lewis:
That is true. Yeah, there is a lot of deep diving that could happen here, but we’ll go ahead and start with pretty surface level and and note that firstly, it depends on what kind of trigger it is there. A number of different types of triggers and different ones are gonna have different conditions that are required, to make them count as being missed. The first is if you have a triggered ability with a target other than just target opponent, you need to announce the target before the next priority pass. So, if I have a trigger, let’s say
12:11:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:11:57 pm – Sam Lewis:
it’s mayhem devil Whenever players sacrifices, a permanent may end level deals, one damage to any target. If I, Crack a fetch land. And then, I say. Any responses to my fetch land. And you say no. And then I go to pick up my library. At this point, I would have had to announce the target for this trigger ability because it needs to target as
12:12:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:12:21 pm – Sam Lewis:
it’s put on the stack.
12:12:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:12:23 pm – Sam Lewis:
Now, Now, when you’re playing a 1v1 game target opponent can only refer to one thing. So it’s kind of a special exception to this because anytime that I have target opponent I’m it’s going to be you the player setting across from
12:12:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:12:35 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:12:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
It’s not really a meaningful choice, right? It’s not one that could say be influenced by new information that you get, right? Whereas if you’re if you’re trying to
12:12:44 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:12:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
be Trixie and you sacrifice your you you know, cracker fetch land, you got your mayhem devil out and you’re like, looking through your deck that might that could theoretically like inform your decision about what to target. So that’s sort of the reason why we look to like, okay, clearly you have not identified this the time when it matters and it does matter in a bunch of situations.
12:13:03 pm – Sam Lewis:
Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
12:13:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:13:04 pm – Sam Lewis:
So those basically So those basically like you need to put your trigger on the sack legally and it’s important to know when object is on this hack that has a target what it’s targeting, right?
12:13:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:13:14 pm – Sam Lewis:
So so, yeah, target opponent is a special exception to this where for target opponent you’ll just need to demonstrate knowledge of it when it becomes relevant.
12:13:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:13:23 pm – Sam Lewis:
So that that gets its own little exception here. But everything else that has a target you need to do it immediately. Can’t even have a priority pass much less adding something else to the stack.
12:13:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, it’s it’s that that one’s probably the most strict of them like you basically have to recognize it at the time. You don’t get really any leeway to like kind of catch it later on.
12:13:43 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the next one that we have,
12:13:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:13:47 pm – Sam Lewis:
we’ve got triggers with a change to the visible game, state, and or triggers the require a choice on resolution. So for these, you need to take the action or acknowledge a trigger before you take an action that could only happen after the resolution. So let’s imagine that I control and essence warden, which is a creature that whenever another creature enters the battlefield, you gain a life and I cast and elvish visionary. And I say Trigger and I draw a card from my office visionary and then I cast Court of Calling and Court of Calling is an instance fellow. But let’s search my library and I cord, I pick out my creature, I put it into play and then I say, Okay, that’s gonna trigger essence warden. Oh, and Elvis Visionary. Also triggered essence Worden, basically, the idea here is that
12:14:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:14:31 pm – Sam Lewis:
everything that just happened on the stack could have happened on top of the essence sword and trigger. It is a legal state for the essence
12:14:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:14:37 pm – Sam Lewis:
Warden trigger to be the bottom object of this tack and everything else to happen on top of it. And so I haven’t missed this trigger because this all could have happened legally with the trigger still on this stack. If however, instead of court of
12:14:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:14:48 pm – Sam Lewis:
calling I had a green Sun zenith which is a sorcery instead of an instant, and I play my visionary, draw my card. And then I cast a green sends zenith and I go grab another creature. And then I go this triggered, this creature triggers us and sword. And then I say, Oh, and my Elvis Visionary did too. In this case, we’ve already proceeded past where the trigger would have had to resolve,
12:15:06 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:15:06 pm – Sam Lewis:
And so And so, I’ve missed this trigger.
12:15:08 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, you you can cast court of calling with that trigger. On the stack, you can’t cast Green Sons unit with that trigger on the stack. So that’s why there’s a meaningful difference there.
12:15:16 pm – Sam Lewis:
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So as long as as long as you acknowledge the trigger or a choice that you have to make for it before you do, something that could only happen if the trigger weren’t there. So if the sack were empty in this case, then you’re totally fine. And then the last and kind of like most lenient group that we’re going to talk about are trigabilities that affect the game state in non-visible ways. So they’re kind of two different things that I’m going to put into the same category here. The first is examples of things like
12:15:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:15:47 pm – Sam Lewis:
Where a lot of modern players are familiar with this. You know, I’m a burn player, I’m playing monastery, swift sphere. I don’t need to announce my prowess trigger every single time if I have a
12:15:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:15:57 pm – Sam Lewis:
trigger every single time if I have a swift spirit and I bolt you and I swift spirit and I bolt you and I bolt you and I attack you with swift damage am I taking? And I say Nine I haven’t missed those triggers.
12:16:05 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:16:06 pm – Sam Lewis:
I remembered them. The first time they became relevant.
12:16:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
Speaking of speaking of prowess though, it’s interesting to note that there’s a heroic deck, that’s been actually gaining some traction and pioneer and that one is meaningfully different. That doesn’t fall under this last one because it puts plus and plus one counters on favorite hoplight in particular, right? So that’s falls into that pioneer. different. That doesn’t fall under this last one because it puts plus and plus one counters on favorite hoplight in particular, right? So that’s falls into that different. different. That doesn’t fall under this last one because it puts plus and plus one counters on favorite hoplight in particular, right? So that’s falls into that third different. different. because it puts plus and plus one counters on favorite hoplight in particular, right? particular, right?
12:16:24 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:16:26 pm – Daniel Lee:
bullet, there of visible change to the game state. Like, you have to put the counter on the favorite hop, light.
12:16:33 pm – Sam Lewis:
Right. Yeah absolutely. And and as a like, you know, small
12:16:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:16:37 pm – Sam Lewis:
caveat here, they’re gonna be lots of times, especially when players are playing quickly, especially when they have, like, kind of blitzie decks like that red white deck and her in a pioneer where it’s totally feasible that a player will like announce their favorite hoplight triggers and not physically grab a die and then they’ll like, you know, say like favorite hot plate, has triggered three times hit you for however, And then like, after they’ve
12:17:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:17:00 pm – Sam Lewis:
And then like after they’ve taken their actions, they put the die on the favorite hot plate. They obviously haven’t missed those triggers. Like both players understand what’s happening. As long as we’re communicating clearly
12:17:08 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:17:09 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:17:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep. Yeah, and it’s like, he’s an importantly it’s worth, you know, they cast a thing hop, like Trigger Castle thing hop like trigger. So like even if they’re cleaning up the, the physical representation, the game said, later point they’ve clearly demonstrated awareness of their triggers.
12:17:22 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:17:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:17:23 pm – Sam Lewis:
And then so the And then so the final thing in this last bullet is, there’s some triggers that don’t have an effect on a visible game state in that, they are actually modifying the rules of the game. So if there’s a trigger that says, You know, until your next turn players, can’t your opponents can’t cast instant and sorcery spells. Um, that is modifying, the rules of the game. And so you don’t necessarily need to announce your A’s or the lawbringer trigger you can play it. And then if it becomes relevant, namely if your opponent tries to cast an instant or sorcery spell, and then you say, Hey you can’t do that. Azer came in last Turn then you’ve demonstrated awareness. The first time it came relevant, and this is a great like little segue to
12:18:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:18:06 pm – Sam Lewis:
touch on something, if your opponent controls, but didn’t announce a trigger that modifies, the rules of the game. You are allowed to try to take an action that may or may not be legal depending on whether or not they remember their trigger if they don’t.
12:18:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Another. There’s another there’s another situation where this comes up and it’s with the prowess triggers and if someone, you know, as cash two spells but they didn’t mention their power sugars, yet. It’s actually not. There’s a, there was a kill spell at the time, that was like, destroy Terra creature, power, two or less, or something. So it’s like, it’s not if you don’t get a game, rule violation for trying to cast that on the Swiss beer. And for sort of forcing your opponent to remember their triggers at that moment, right?
12:18:49 pm – Sam Lewis:
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So you can try to take the action and
12:18:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:18:52 pm – Sam Lewis:
then it’s, it’s on your opponent to remember their triggers by telling you. Hey, You can’t do that for whatever
12:19:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, that that’s not a legal target.
12:19:01 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:19:02 pm – Daniel Lee:
It has three power. And then you’re like, Oh, all right. Cool. Well done. You remembered your triggers?
12:19:07 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:19:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:19:07 pm – Sam Lewis:
And so so in those instances we don’t in fact we just rewind the illegal action but the player is allowed to
12:19:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:19:15 pm – Sam Lewis:
take that action to see whether or not everyone has missed their trigger.
12:19:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, and and that’s not like pure upside either. Because now, your opponent knows you have that card in your hand, so that that information exchange is kind of good enough to cover the, like the, the little bit that that feels kind of weird. But it’s like, Yeah, you’re giving you’re risk and giving away information in exchange for maybe getting maybe getting one over on your opponent. We’ll see.
12:19:35 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:19:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:19:36 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yeah. All right, so just really quickly, we’re gonna look at some particular examples to kind of drive these home. First up, we’re going to have goblin guide. This is an example of a trigger that has a visible effect on the game state. You revealing. The top card of your library is something very visible. Like both players.
12:19:54 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, for sure.
12:19:55 pm – Sam Lewis:
We can see whether or not this So if I Attack with a goblin guide and then I don’t say anything. And you say Go to blocks and I say, Yep. and then you, Put a creature in front of it. We’ve now proceeded past the point where this trigger could have happened, right? And so, Now, we have definitely missed this trigger, so that falls into the
12:20:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:20:19 pm – Sam Lewis:
category of visible effect on the game state,
12:20:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
Seems unlike that happened
12:20:25 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:20:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
considering the defending players,
12:20:26 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yeah. Yeah, there are lots of triggers
12:20:28 pm – Daniel Lee:
the one that wants that triggered
12:20:28 pm – Sam Lewis:
where players are players are especially the player that doesn’t
12:20:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:20:32 pm – Sam Lewis:
control. The trigger, want to make sure it happens.
12:20:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:20:35 pm – Sam Lewis:
And of those later with what a generally detrimental trigger is. But yeah, it’s absolutely true that
12:20:42 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:20:44 pm – Sam Lewis:
Goblin guy triggers. Don’t normally go unresolved.
12:20:48 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, fair enough.
12:20:49 pm – Sam Lewis:
Next up, Azer the lawbringer, I kind of like spoiled this one because I used it. As my example, for triggers that change the rules of the game, there aren’t a ton of them.
12:21:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
there’s a I’m pretty sure there’s one, I don’t remember the name of the but I’m pretty sure there’s one
12:21:07 pm – Sam Lewis:
I absolutely believe that. Yeah.
12:21:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
of card, but I’m pretty sure there’s one of the landfall trigger that creatures. Can’t block this turn or something like that.
12:21:15 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yeah, that is a great example. Yeah. And and so again this one I don’t have to announce it until it becomes relevant and then I need to show at the time that it’s relevant. That I still have that, I have awareness of the trigger and my opponent is allowed to check and see whether or not I do it by trying to cast that instant sorcery. Spell
12:21:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
I think that. Okay. Yeah, I’m pretty sure that that exists somewhere so but that, that’s what I thought it was as an example
12:21:38 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:21:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
example of this, this type of
12:21:38 pm – Sam Lewis:
I still this from the arena version of the
12:21:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:21:40 pm – Sam Lewis:
card to the physical version.
12:21:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:21:42 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:21:43 pm – Daniel Lee:
The alchemy version, It’s got that fancy little mythic a there up in the top corner.
12:21:47 pm – Sam Lewis:
yeah, yeah, it’s a not relevant for this particular thing but the actual version of the card Yeah yeah it’s a not relevant for this particular thing but the actual version of the card is a four three. So Demi Lodge has a triggered ability when it attacks. Exile up to one target in center sorcery card from your graveyard, copy it. You can cast the copy. and the important thing here is just that it targets Demi Lodge does need
12:22:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:22:05 pm – Sam Lewis:
to target, which means that this is falling into that like most strict category of triggers where we can’t even have a priority pass before I declare the target.
12:22:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:22:15 pm – Sam Lewis:
Or if we do then I’ve missed it.
12:22:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, you have to go attack. Trigger exile that thing or if because if you do anything you go swing and then they go go to blocks and you’re like, Yeah, go for it. You just not. Yep. You’re we’re way past it at that point.
12:22:33 pm – Sam Lewis:
Right. Exactly. Yeah. And and we don’t want you to be able to pick a different target now and knowing how your opponent’s block gonna block or something like that. Like that, that information is really important and we need to be announcing it as we put the trigger on the stack. and then finally, this is the most famous example of the triggers that don’t have a visible effect on the game state monastery, swift spear, and other prowess creatures as long as you announce the correct amount of damage or if there’s something that cares about its power toughness, or if your opponent asks, you What’s monastery? Swift power. Anytime that any of those happen if you’re if you’re Whatever number you say tells us how many of your triggers you remembered. So, if you cast three lightning bolts and then your opponent says How much damage is swift. We’re dealing and you say three, well then you remember two of your browse triggers and you forgot one
12:23:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep. Yep, there is a I’ve seen this turn into a bit of a contentious thing where one player is like, how much damage, like, How big is that now like you have to figure it out because it’s derived information and the other person’s like, well, I I was just kind of would just kind of like, well you tell me how much it is and so it’s it was the person was trying to figure out whether or not they should block and I think at that point, once the other person’s like, you have to figure it out, it’s derived information then it’s like, okay. They probably remembered their triggers at that point. So you should just treat it as though it’s that big and the only time that they’re forced to tell you is when it goes to a sign damage because that then becomes free information.
12:24:02 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yeah. Yeah. And and so yeah. Swift Spears. Power is derived information but the number of prowess triggers that have happened, this turn. If you ask that question like How many times has swift? Fear triggered, prowesses turn, your phone is obligated to answer that because it is
12:24:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, that’s true. That is a laundry free information. That’s right.
12:24:21 pm – Sam Lewis:
Exactly. Yeah. So, so that that that’s one of the instances were like Your opponent doesn’t, if I say like, How big is swift spear? You don’t have to tell me, Swift spears of four five. But if I then say, Okay, how many you
12:24:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:24:35 pm – Sam Lewis:
can tell me, right? That’s derived information. But then, if I say, Okay, how many times has monastery? So if you’re triggered this turn, you have to let me know. It’s triggered three.
12:24:43 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Yeah. Or if you say it trigger too then well done. You missed one.
12:24:48 pm – Sam Lewis:
Right. Exactly. Yeah.
12:24:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:24:50 pm – Sam Lewis:
You have to give me an answer to that Yeah. question.
12:24:52 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right, for sure.
12:24:52 pm – Sam Lewis:
And then And then from that, we’ll figure out. Yeah. Cool. So now I’m just going to run through a quick flow chart that’s going to help us with almost every case of a Miss Trigger. So the first thing that we’re gonna get into is one of our one of our like, special cases, which is that the trigger that was missed, is an enters the battlefield trigger of an aura that affects only the enchanted permanent and causes a visible change to it. The most common example of these are going to be the like claustrophobia and narcolepsy effects.
12:25:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:25:24 pm – Sam Lewis:
enchantments that like, come into play there or is that enchanted creature. And they tap it down and prevent it from untapping.
12:25:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:25:32 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:25:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
Tammy is completion Tammy is completion as an example. This one too.
12:25:34 pm – Sam Lewis:
Get yeah, exactly. Capture sphere for my Korea.
12:25:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:25:38 pm – Sam Lewis:
We’ve got there, they’re all over the place. And these triggers are really special in that we resolve them immediately without using this tack. A really big example of a reason for this is that we don’t want us to. Like I claustrophobia your thing past the turn, you untap, you draw and then you say Go to combat and I’m like Combat’s. Okay. Oh, hey. Hang on a second. three. three. And
12:26:05 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:26:05 pm – Sam Lewis:
And so And so when we recognize that And so when we recognize that we just And so when we recognize that we just have the thing right away, you don’t get to like get to like And so when we recognize that we just have the thing right away, you don’t get to like have the thing right away, you don’t get to like sneakly get an attack in with your creature that wasn’t supposed to be get to like sneakily get an attack in with your creature that wasn’t supposed to be there.
12:26:12 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, it’s in this This was a specific car that was made exactly for like, Okay. Let’s let’s make that make it so that these are as actually do something and that, like not in a saying that like, Oh, claustrophobia creature, tap it down, like, trigger tap it down, like not saying like it’s casting, the spell is kind of a way of remembering your trigger on its own, right. It’s so it’s a, It was a specific carve out that was made so that those bells wouldn’t just be super useless.
12:26:40 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:26:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
If you missed that very easy to not point out trigger,
12:26:44 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yeah and we actually we have one of the thing that’s really philosophically similar which are there are triggers their colloquially known as reflexive triggers but triggers that happen where you can take an action and then they’re immediately followed by. When you do do a thing, The most common example is exert, but you’ll also find examples in like hypothesisal and grist, the hunger tides minus 2, Um and yeah, these are colloquially called reflexive triggers but basically, by taking the action, you’re considered to be demonstrating
12:27:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:27:14 pm – Sam Lewis:
awareness of the resulting trigger and claustrophobia super similar to
12:27:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:27:18 pm – Sam Lewis:
that. The idea is that like by casting the aura on the thing you’re demonstrating awareness of the trigger that’s going to happen once that resolves.
12:27:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:27:25 pm – Sam Lewis:
sure that we treat it like that.
12:27:26 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah going to a super super example, hooded brawler was a big deal in amicat sealed and it was a three-two and you may exert it when attacks and if you do it gets most people too. So it’s just like, Oh yes. I exert my hooded brawler, take three like that doesn’t make any sense. Like you’re expected you at that point. You’re just been like, No, no, it is actually a five four. So it’s yeah, you you, demonstrated awareness, your trigger by choosing to do the thing. That all it does is cause it to trigger, right?
12:27:56 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:27:56 pm – Daniel Lee:
Of course you did. Yeah.
12:27:57 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yep. Yep. And worth noting like this is a quick segue that isn’t in the flow chart, but for those triggers like Yep. Yep. quick segue that isn’t in the flow chart, but for those triggers like hypothesisal and grist, if the player takes the appropriate action that would generate the trigger and then doesn’t actually do it. We treat that as a game rules violation anonymous trigger because the player is considered to have demonstrated awareness of the trigger. And so, then if we proceed without them, putting it on this tack. The problem is that they have in correctly resolved this tack not that they have missed the trigger because they’re considered by default to have remembered it. Now, back into the things that actually fall into mistrigger rather than things that get kind of kicked out of Miss Trigger where we have delayed zone change triggers. Now, this definition is like a little bit wordy so we’ll get into exactly what it is later. But a lot of players when they hear this, they think of at least a couple of things, they think of maybe Geist of Saint Traft, Kiki geeky, sneak attack, things like that and so we’re really quickly for now just call it like that broad archetype and we’ll rigorously define it in just a minute here. When we have one of those then the opponent is going to get to choose if we resolve it at the next time we get priority or at the start of the next stepper phase. So pretty relevantly here, one thing that we don’t want to do is a player is in their declare blockers and has a creature that’s going to be coming back into the battlefield. We don’t want a player to be able to miss a trigger to then suddenly get a like surprise blocker. Now that their opponent has already declared a tax based on the information that they didn’t have this creature in play. So that’s why we give this like little bit of window for the opponent to choose when we resolve it. We can either do it next time of those priority or sort of next separate phase. So we don’t get those like weird sneaky surprise blockers because the player missed a non-expiring trigger.
12:29:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
And one of the, one of the things that came up when it’s the next ever phase, they don’t have a choice between the except for phase. It’s literally just, it’s either gonna resolve next priority, or at the beginning of whatever. The next part of the turn is
12:30:05 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yeah, exactly. That’s that’s a great thing to to
12:30:06 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:30:07 pm – Sam Lewis:
call out. um, and so then the the final thing that we’re going to have as like, call out. and so, then the the final thing that we’re going to have as like, A, A quick easy answer in our flow chart is, Was this missed prior to the current phase in the previous turn. So, these, two examples that we’ve already talked about there were what are called non-expiring triggers. And so it doesn’t matter when we discover it, if we’re able to, we’re going to resolve them as we’ve laid out there already. In the instance that it does not fall into those, then it’s not going to be a non-expiring trigger and it is going to be able to expire and this defines when they expire, which is prior to the current phase in the previous turn. And when that happens, then we just tell the players to keep going because We’ve we’ve gone. We’ve gone past it. The trigger is now expired.
12:30:54 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:30:55 pm – Sam Lewis:
And And there. There are some triggers that have like a specified duration. And so if a trigger says, like a creature, gets a bonus until end of turn and then I pass the turn to you and then I realize Oh shoot my my goober should have been a four three on my turn. Instead, my turn is over already and
12:31:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:31:15 pm – Sam Lewis:
so that the trigger has the duration of the trigger has already expired. So we don’t do anything with it players. Just keep going. now, if it wasn’t miss prior to the current phase in the previous turn, so if it was missed within this turn cycle, Like if I missed an attack trigger and we’re now in your draw step, let’s say I like attacked with a goblin guide and then you go to draw your card. And then we realize that we miss my goblin guide trigger, that’s gonna be an example, of, of a trigger that might fall into this. So first, we’re going to go back. We’re gonna double check. Is it covered by anything in the last slide? And if the answer is yes, then we made a mistake somewhere. We are not good at following flow charts and we should go back and follow the appropriate direction there.
12:31:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, yeah sure. Yeah sure. I don’t know how we ended up Yeah. Yeah sure. I don’t know how we ended up here if it was covered up anything last
12:32:02 pm – Sam Lewis:
Exactly exactly. Yeah, and if no, if it’s not covered by anything, then the opponent is
12:32:05 pm – Daniel Lee:
night. That yeah.
12:32:07 pm – Sam Lewis:
going to get to choose whether or not we add it to this tack. If we do add it to the stack, it either goes where it belongs. If it can, if it can’t go where it belongs, then it goes on the bottom of the sack. So if there’s anything that has already been cast or activated or triggered, those things are going to stay on top of it. They’re still going to resolve first. And any choices that? Your players making when the trigger resolves, they can’t choose things. That would have been illegal when the trigger should have happened. So an example that I’ve been given here is you you play a flashback marauder or a plague crafter or something like that. That’s going to make me sacrifice a creature in your main phase two and
12:32:43 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:32:45 pm – Sam Lewis:
then You pass the turn and on my turn, I cast an unlucky witness. Now and then so I cast my unlock your business and I go judge my opponent, forgot their playcrafted trigger. If we resolve that play Crafter trigger, I can’t choose my unlucky witness because the unlucky witness
12:33:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:33:02 pm – Sam Lewis:
shouldn’t have been in play when that trigger happened. Yeah, so this is, this is one of the big things where like Giving the opponent the choice of whether or not to add the trigger to this hack. Make sure that we don’t have any potential for advantage here.
12:33:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:33:22 pm – Sam Lewis:
This is like really similar to hidden card error. Basically like it’s very hard for us to Have the judges fix it in a way where we always make sure that the player who didn’t make the error. Is offsetting potential advantage and so we give the choice to that player.
12:33:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:33:41 pm – Sam Lewis:
and now that player is going to be able to make the choice that make sure that the player who missed the trigger isn’t being unfairly advantaged and that’s like a really powerful tool.
12:33:48 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, they Generally speaking, the players know what’s going on in a game better than we do in terms of what gives think what get what’ll give one person in advantage versus versus not. I will add one thing. I do want to mention on this one comes to giving me opponent the option. Putting on the stack, there are this can sometimes lead to a little bit of contention, a little bit of attention at the table because then the player that missed the trigger thinks their promise being a jerk or whatever, for saying that they miss their trigger and it can kind of cause a little bit of hostility. So that’s a good thing to be aware of. They’re also, some ways of of asking the question that makes a little less confrontational you’re saying. Like, if you’re if especially since like, if the opponent is the one calling you over to be like my opponent, miss their trigger generally speaking, they’re doing that because they don’t want their opponent to get the trigger, right? So you can you just kind of verify?
12:34:40 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:34:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
okay so you you’re under the impression this triggers miss and they shouldn’t get it right and like yeah and I was like okay cool so then you can like deflect away from them and be like so this is a mis trigger. We It this far. So what we do here is actually we’re just gonna play on without the trigger. There’s no warnings for missing this and then we’re just gonna go ahead and play on from here like so you.
12:34:57 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:34:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
there’s some strategies there for making sure that you’re not accidentally escalating a situation.
12:35:02 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yes. And in the case where it is
12:35:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:35:05 pm – Sam Lewis:
ambiguous. One of the lines that I like to use is I will say by ambiguous. ambiguous. is I will say by And in the case where it is ambiguous. One of the lines that I like to use is I will say by default. What’s going to happen here is that we are going to continue on that trigger has been missed and we play on from here. If you would like to add that trigger to this tack. For some reason, you are allowed to by default we proceed with it gone. The trigger has been missed.
12:35:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:35:24 pm – Sam Lewis:
We play on from here because if if you think it’s ambiguous whether the trigger Whether the player might want their opponent to have the trigger or not, maybe like the opponent is at five life and miss their dark confidant trigger. Um, it’s it’s good to make it clear
12:35:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:35:40 pm – Sam Lewis:
like what the default is and then that the player can make an exception but I totally agree that you it is
12:35:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:35:47 pm – Sam Lewis:
But I totally agree that you It is very good to approach that cautiously because you don’t want to make it seem like the player is being a jerk
12:35:52 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:35:53 pm – Sam Lewis:
for following what policy says.
12:35:56 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. And there, and there are some players
12:36:01 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:36:02 pm – Daniel Lee:
that will already be in that will already be in that mode
12:36:03 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yeah, absolutely agree. It’s a really good thing to be cautious of
12:36:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
just because they judge got called over in the first place and
12:36:08 pm – Sam Lewis:
so now I mentioned that we were going to rigorously divide delayed zone change triggers, this is where we’re
12:36:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
over in the first place. And yeah, so,
12:36:12 pm – Sam Lewis:
going to go ahead and get into it, so a delayed zone change. Oh, oh my gosh, I was so easy. Shoot, I thought it was gonna be way harder.
12:36:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:36:22 pm – Sam Lewis:
um so in particular if the
12:36:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
It’s a zone change that got delayed somehow, right?
12:36:25 pm – Sam Lewis:
trigatability that we’re talking about is a delayed, trigatability that undoes, the zone change that was caused by the effect that made the delayed triggered ability. So if this an effect that as it’s resolving it says you know do this thing. and then at, Whatever time. Undo that thing. So, guys of Saint Traft is When guys is saying traffic tax, create a an angel token that’s tapped in tapping at tapped and attacking exile. That token at the beginning of the next end step. So we have a delayed triggered ability that’s part of the ability that made the token. So that meets the criterion for that is caused by the effect that created. Um and so that means that that’s going to fall into this camp of non-expiring triggers. And so some other example of these are the Kiki geeky, the sneak attack, and then there are some cards that used to fall into this back before. This was changed, to be this, more rigorous definition because it used
12:37:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:37:25 pm – Sam Lewis:
to just be basically any trigger that sets up his own change. That happens later and so it used to include things like the yeah, exactly.
12:37:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:37:35 pm – Sam Lewis:
Price Malcom is kind of the most Price malcom is kind of the most famous example, which prized amalgam
12:37:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:37:37 pm – Sam Lewis:
is whenever a creature enters a battlefield under control from your graveyard return prize and album to the battlefield at the beginning of the next end step. And so this one obviously the trigger that is setting up that delayed zone chain trigger for prize them out. That is setting up the zone change, trigger for price to malgum is not
12:37:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Yeah, right.
12:37:55 pm – Sam Lewis:
the one that is putting prizmogram into your graveyard or something prizing. Algon is staying in your graveyard, it’s already been there. And then something else is making a trigger is triggering it and setting up change.
12:38:06 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:38:06 pm – Sam Lewis:
up change. So prize in Malcolm, no longer is covered by this. Another example are The almond cat or well I guess our devastation gods.
12:38:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh yeah, the scarab God and what have
12:38:17 pm – Sam Lewis:
Scorpion Gods Court. Scarab God. Yeah.
12:38:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:38:19 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:38:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:38:21 pm – Sam Lewis:
From War of the Spark.
12:38:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. The, this was that’s where they get. They came up with that. Tech of the undoes a zone change like that particular. And then they had to include like also token creation because there’s there, it’s on, it was kind of unclear. If there was a zone change. If the 44 Angel for guys to say draft just kind of appeared on the battlefield. It’s like, was that really his own
12:39:00 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:39:02 pm – Daniel Lee:
change and it’s like Okay, token creation is there and then I also
12:39:08 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yeah, that’s a great example.
12:39:08 pm – Daniel Lee:
specified that the the zone it’s
12:39:10 pm – Sam Lewis:
Um, yeah also ether me. Just gift is a modern card that falls
12:39:12 pm – Daniel Lee:
going to doesn’t have to be the same
12:39:15 pm – Sam Lewis:
Just gift is a modern card that falls
12:39:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
that it came from.
12:39:16 pm – Sam Lewis:
into the same boat.
12:39:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
So you could, for example, you I you
12:39:16 pm – Sam Lewis:
It’s moving something from your library, to the battlefield, and then setting up a delayed trigger to move it from your battlefield to your
12:39:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:39:21 pm – Sam Lewis:
hand, feather, the redeemed, take and then exile to your hand. and then exile to your hand. And yeah, so it doesn’t need to be the same something from this, tack to exile and then exile to your hand. And yeah, so it doesn’t need to be the same zone. Yeah, awesome. So those are all of those delayed zone change triggers. Those are also non-expiring. So once we notice them, we’re going to say to the opponent. Hey, would you like to have this trigger go on the stack, The next time a player would get priority? Or the next time player would get priority at the start of the next step. And we already covered our examples. So now I just really quickly. I want to go into a few examples of
12:40:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
Um, para grease fang.
12:40:00 pm – Sam Lewis:
things that especially if you have some players who maybe like, you know, used to play magic pre-pandemic. Maybe they’d like Miss a few months before the pandemic and they’re finally coming back and playing paper
12:40:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
Uh, grease thing.
12:40:11 pm – Sam Lewis:
for the first time in quite a while.
12:40:12 pm – Daniel Lee:
I’ll keep a boss.
12:40:14 pm – Sam Lewis:
and they might have some memories of
12:40:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
That one trigger brings the
12:40:16 pm – Sam Lewis:
triggers working differently than how
12:40:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
Brings the back from the graveyard and then
12:40:17 pm – Sam Lewis:
they do. Now, the first example that I want to go over that if you like haven’t
12:40:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
returns it to your hand.
12:40:23 pm – Sam Lewis:
visited policy in a while, you might
12:40:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
So it is even So it is even though those are two
12:40:24 pm – Sam Lewis:
have thought was missing from previous slide is triggers with a default action.
12:40:26 pm – Daniel Lee:
different different ones, it’s still undoing a
12:40:28 pm – Sam Lewis:
action. The most famous example of these are of course the packs which are at the
12:40:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:40:32 pm – Sam Lewis:
beginning of your next upkeep pay and
12:40:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:40:34 pm – Sam Lewis:
amount of mana if you don’t, you lose the game and the default action here
12:40:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:40:38 pm – Sam Lewis:
would be you lose the game. And the way that policy used to handle these was that if we have a
12:40:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:40:45 pm – Sam Lewis:
trigger with the default action,
12:40:46 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:40:47 pm – Sam Lewis:
we’re just gonna resolve the trigger choosing the default action. And so if a player drew before they paid for their pack trigger, then They don’t get priority.
12:40:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:40:58 pm – Sam Lewis:
We just resolve the trigger and they lose the game that has changed.
12:40:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:41:00 pm – Sam Lewis:
Now, instead of doing that, we handle it, like,
12:41:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:41:02 pm – Sam Lewis:
Like, we handle any other Miss trigger where we’re going to
12:41:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:41:36 pm – Sam Lewis:
I cast the endurance I shuffle in your graveyard. And then on my turn, I draw my card. And you don’t call a judge yet. And then I have seven lands in play and I tap all seven of them to cast a cultivator colossus. And then you say Hold up costs on this stack, judge my opponent miss. There’s someone who’s passed trigger, I’d like to put it on the stack. This is perfectly legal.
12:41:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:41:59 pm – Sam Lewis:
My opponent never has any obligation to remind me of my triggers. And they are super. Welcome to wait until a particular point to remind me of my trigger. So this does mean the players are
12:42:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:42:09 pm – Sam Lewis:
incentivized to like, sit on the pack trigger until their opponent casts a spell and then use it to put them in a spot where, like, Hey, you no longer have to choose the default action, but if you can’t pay the four, then there’s only one other thing left.
12:42:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:42:22 pm – Sam Lewis:
And this is perfectly legal because
12:42:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:42:25 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:42:26 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah it and this is another one of those that it’s like you said this can feel really scummy but you gotta, you gotta also like allow for the fact that the the player playing the pact like has a bunch of ways that they can remind themselves of their pet trigger to remember it in the normal time. And also they can’t cast that cultivator colossus with that. Like if they pay for that pact at absent other things, right? But like that they’re kind of putting themselves in this position to potentially get this game taken out from under them.
12:42:56 pm – Sam Lewis:
Totally totally. Yeah and like and it’s worth noting right that it used to be that the fix was you always lose the game in that spot.
12:43:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:43:04 pm – Sam Lewis:
And now the fix is
12:43:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:43:06 pm – Sam Lewis:
If you take an action, it makes it so
12:43:06 pm – Daniel Lee:
Sometimes you get the chance to pay
12:43:07 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:43:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:43:08 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:43:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:43:10 pm – Sam Lewis:
So it is more lenient now and, and, you know, the non active player if they are Basically, the non active player can always remind their opponent before they draw the card. If it’s important that the player doesn’t have the mana and the active player, the onus is always on them to remember their own trigger and
12:43:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:43:31 pm – Sam Lewis:
policy is more lenient now than it used to be. Now you only sometimes lose the game in that spot instead of every single time
12:43:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, it’s also important to remember that like, this is a so we haven’t talked about detrimental triggers yet, but it’s important to remember
12:43:54 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yeah, absolutely agree.
12:43:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
that packs definitely fall into that
12:43:56 pm – Sam Lewis:
And actually this is a that’s a great segue to talk about.
12:43:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:43:59 pm – Sam Lewis:
Just kind of mistriggers and investigations in general players, miss triggers right. A lot of the time when a player
12:44:05 pm – Daniel Lee:
And there should be least a little bit of investigation
12:44:06 pm – Sam Lewis:
misses a trigger there is absolutely no ulterior motive, no ill will. A player is just like I’ve been
12:44:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
as to. You just cast that, pact.
12:44:12 pm – Sam Lewis:
playing magic for seven hours and like there were eight things that
12:44:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
How did you not remember to pay for
12:44:15 pm – Sam Lewis:
were supposed to trigger and I missed one of them like that. Absolutely happens.
12:44:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
it on your upkeep?
12:44:19 pm – Sam Lewis:
But it’s important to remember that.
12:44:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:44:22 pm – Sam Lewis:
sometimes when players miss triggers even ones that aren’t generally
12:44:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:44:26 pm – Sam Lewis:
detrimental, it might be intentional and the player might be cheating. We’ll touch a little bit more on that later, but anytime that a player is intentionally missing a trigger That player is cheating.
12:44:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hmm. Yep. Yep, I had an investigation along those lines. It Energy Chicago, where a player may have intentionally missed a trigger
12:45:05 pm – Sam Lewis:
Right, right, exactly. Yeah. And, and again, you know, it’s something that happens like players, miss lots, and lots and lots of
12:45:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
trigger of theirs and I we ended up
12:45:11 pm – Sam Lewis:
triggers it happens. And sometimes, right?
12:45:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
ruling. It was not intentional, mostly
12:45:16 pm – Sam Lewis:
Exactly. Really quickly. I’m just gonna circle back get
12:45:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
because there was a complicated there was a complicated board.
12:45:21 pm – Sam Lewis:
through this example. And then we’re going to have, like, even more of a delve into
12:45:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
So there’s a lot going on. So the fact that
12:45:27 pm – Sam Lewis:
A detrimental triggers and
12:45:28 pm – Daniel Lee:
So the fact that So the fact that it happened to be
12:45:29 pm – Sam Lewis:
investigations on them. So we already mentioned prized
12:45:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
maybe beneficial for them to miss, it
12:45:32 pm – Sam Lewis:
amalgam but this is kind of like the most infamous example of something
12:45:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
wasn’t really enough by itself to
12:45:35 pm – Sam Lewis:
that used to be a delayed zone change trigger. And now is not. So this this trigger does now expire
12:45:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
cross that line into for us to
12:45:40 pm – Sam Lewis:
choose not to put it on the stack.
12:45:46 pm – Daniel Lee:
absolutely determine like you did like you did this on purpose. Therefore you are achieving So for us to absolutely determine like you did this on purpose. Therefore you are achieving
12:46:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
Now. Mm-hmm. Even ones that are good for them. Sure. Mmm.
12:46:18 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Triggers that do nothing except for set up.
12:46:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. but notably the first trigger, the so
12:46:22 pm – Sam Lewis:
Another trigger in the future are assumed to have resolved and that’s a
12:46:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
So the, the main trigger of, whenever creatures, the battlefield that is in it, that is one of those that doesn’t, cause a visible change to
12:46:25 pm – Sam Lewis:
that’s a great thing to mention.
12:46:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
the game state. So you don’t have to recognize it until the second part of that when it
12:46:26 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yeah, for sure.
12:46:27 pm – Daniel Lee:
says return at the beginning of sunset, that trigger causes a causes a visible change the game today.
12:46:29 pm – Sam Lewis:
I have a couple of other things that
12:46:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
So returning the prize amalgamathy.
12:46:30 pm – Sam Lewis:
I want to mention really quickly, one
12:46:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
correct time is how you demonstrate awareness of that second trigger? The first one is assumed to have just
12:46:33 pm – Sam Lewis:
of them, and this is kind of the most
12:46:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
resolved without anyone recognizing it.
12:46:36 pm – Sam Lewis:
Significant thing that I think is
12:46:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:46:38 pm – Sam Lewis:
really important to bear in mind especially at competitive Ariel with how tense things can be at the table. And also how much missures bubble in particular sees play right now. So players may not cause trigabilities control band. Opponent to be missed by taking game actions or otherwise prematurely advancing the game. So one of the big examples of this is, if we’re playing game and I crack a mischer’s bobble and let’s say I go bubble target myself, okay? Crack my fetch land. I’m gonna go. I’m gonna start shuffling past turn to you. You can’t just like, untapped draw your card and be like, okay, you missed your bobble trigger.
12:47:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:47:19 pm – Sam Lewis:
That’s not how that works. You don’t you don’t get to like arbitrarily choose that we’re gonna rush through your upkeep so that I never get my bobble trigger. If you go. Can I go to my draw step? And then I say, Yep, your jaw is fine. Then now we’re proceeding past the point where I would need to have my bottle trigger and I’ve explicitly announced this priority pass.
12:47:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, exactly. The fact that the fact that the player has taken some manner of action to demonstrate that we are going past this point in time, because really, and I’ve had this conversation with a number of judges and everyone’s line is a little bit different. But generally speaking, if your opponent just goes, if you’re like bubble, you blah blah. Do other things. Do other things, go ahead and the opponent goes untapped drop, and then they’re like, cast a spell. And you’re like, Hey, I bobble trigger on your upkeep like the like there’s slightly different lines there, but By and large Just because your opponent has drawn their card for their turn. Doesn’t necessarily mean you missed your Bible trigger because you’re the one that’s got to like you’ve got to make some effort to it but your opponent can’t. Move that line for you if that makes sense.
12:48:26 pm – Sam Lewis:
Right exactly, exactly. Yeah. So basically you can’t make your opponent Right exactly. Yeah. So basically you can’t make your So basically you can’t make your Right exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So basically you can’t make your Right exactly. Exactly. So basically you can’t make your So basically you can’t make your opponent Miss triggers Right exactly, exactly. Exactly. So basically you can’t make your So basically you can’t make your opponent Miss triggers
12:48:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:48:37 pm – Sam Lewis:
The. The next thing that I want to mention here is out of order sequencing. A good example of this actually that I’m going to use is going to be demulich because I think that it’s important to call out examples where even our most stringent example. Of what it takes to set up a miss trigger. Can be fine. So out of order sequencing, basically
12:48:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:49:01 pm – Sam Lewis:
basically, you can double check, MTR, 4.3 to kind of read through it and make sure that you understand exactly what it is. But the basic idea is a player can propose a block of actions and they can propose them in the wrong order. As long as the end result can be reached legally in the game rules and the player isn’t putting themselves in a position where they could potentially gain advantage from how they sequence it. So the example I’m going to give is, let’s say that you control a three, three and I have a man amorphos and my graveyard and a bolt in my hand and I control his emulich and I go attack with Demi Lodge or Dude, Target, my man amorphos with the demo. That’s Trigger. These are technically out of order. Technically what I’m saying? I’m doing if we were to break it down as I’m saying attack with them each demi. Let’s trigger. Put it on this. Tack targeting, man amorphism. My graveyard. Hold priority. Pay one lightenable targeting your three, three. And that block of actions is legal if we do it correctly. And I’m not like fishing for information from you here. I’m not trying to do anything improper. So as long as I’m proposing, this whole block of actions all together because I want to keep the game moving Keep going quickly. This is fine. um, Now, we do need to be pretty. Very cautious of what constitutes, a player, potentially gaining information. And basically, if you are not sure if something can fall in out of order sequencing. The answer. Is it probably can’t?
12:50:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, there’s a, there’s definitely a lot of ways to get a little, to get really permissive with when using out of order sequencing. And a lot of times it’s really going to be kind of obvious a lot. A lot of the example people come like, well, could this be out of our sequencing? They’ve introduced elements to it where like a player pauses a player like kind of hems and haws over something and it’s just like this is really meant to be like I’m gonna do these five things and the order I listed them is not the correct order, they should be. But if you just scoot them around a little bit That it’s fine. And there’s no weird just going on. There’s no like, Oh I’m gonna draw a card before. I’m supposed to kind of a thing. Like then it’s fine. Go for it. Do your deer block of actions. But yeah, so it is it is really easy to read the AdWords, sequencing section to seem to make it apply to a situations. It was never intended to apply to. It’s meant to be like, Hey look if you’re trying to block like group together, several things that you’re doing in order to speed the game up or make it a little less and to make the game a little stedious. Then go for it. We’re not gonna be rules lawyers about it.
12:51:47 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yeah, exactly exactly. We
12:51:48 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:51:49 pm – Sam Lewis:
We want to let players play quickly players. players and if a player needs to take an action in a way that is so clear to both players. And if a player needs to take an action, like if you say, Hey, I want to do all of these things and the way that you declared it, Isn’t technical And I say, Hey, I have a response to step number three out of six. So I need us to actually block this
12:52:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:52:09 pm – Sam Lewis:
order. Then we do that but we want to let
12:52:12 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:52:13 pm – Sam Lewis:
players play quickly and well, as long as they’re communicating with each other. Well,
12:52:17 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:52:19 pm – Sam Lewis:
Um and then I give the the example of Bobble again because I think that that’s one that is going to come up a lot especially in modern legacy right now. So, you know, just bear in mind that just because I have said past turn, doesn’t mean that you get to draw a card and make me miss my trigger in your upkeep.
12:52:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:52:38 pm – Sam Lewis:
I need to I need to explicitly
12:52:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:52:40 pm – Sam Lewis:
declare a priority pass for the, for
12:52:42 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:52:42 pm – Sam Lewis:
that to be missed. Um, so now, I finally want to get into the the time that mistrigger actually has a penalty associated, we’ve done a whole lot to define what it is, how you can find it and how we handle it. But you might have noticed if you look at Miss Trigger in the IPG that when you look at the penalty there isn’t one. There’s no penalty for Miss Trigger by default. However, there is an upgrade which is that if they trigger is considered generally detrimental, Then you’ll get a warning for missing it. Um so a good example of this one is going to be goblin guide. If I attack you with goblin guide, that is a generally detrimental trigger for me, letting you
12:53:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:53:24 pm – Sam Lewis:
Letting you potentially add a card to your hand, definitely falls into generally detrimental.
12:53:27 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep, that’s usually a bad thing.
12:53:30 pm – Sam Lewis:
Right. Exactly. Now One thing to note here is, it doesn’t matter if it’s detrimental in this particular moment for that
12:53:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:53:37 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:53:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right, so if your opponent only has two cards left in their deck, that doesn’t change Right? So if your opponent only has two cards left in their deck, that doesn’t change that Detroit. That’s why we use the phrase. Generally detrimental In most situations. This trigger is bad for me as the goblin guy player and good for my opponent. Even if in this particular case Oh hey my opponent might be decking out like yeah, sure that can happen and it should be part of your investigation if you think a player is missing their triggers intentionally. But in this case, this player is sort of incentivized to remember it. So it’s probably less often that they’re gonna forget it but even if they do, it’s still like even though it’s bad for them to miss it, they’re still should be getting a warning for missing it.
12:54:22 pm – Sam Lewis:
Exactly, yep. Yep.
12:54:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:54:23 pm – Sam Lewis:
And so, one thing to note is that if a player is deliberately missing a generally non detrimental trigger, that player might be cheating if a player is that two life, and they miss their dark confidant trigger. That looks really suspicious. We should probably be asking some
12:54:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:54:38 pm – Sam Lewis:
questions. We should be seeing if, like the player has missed any dark confidant triggers before, you know, if
12:54:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
especially if it only seems to happen when there are four life or less,
12:54:48 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:54:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:54:50 pm – Sam Lewis:
And so another example, actually that I had come up in a tournament, one time is a non-active player controls, multiple or yacht champions. Which when creatures into the
12:55:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:55:01 pm – Sam Lewis:
you gain life, and they had and snaring bridge out, and the active player had, and are quite phoenix in the graveyard and cast, three or more instances of instance or sorceries and then went to combat and didn’t bring back their arcade Phoenix. And bring back Our Phoenix is definitely not generally detrimental, you know, like that’s kind of the whole idea of the card, right? Is to bring it back with that
12:55:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:55:25 pm – Sam Lewis:
trigger. trigger, but in this particular case, if the player is deliberately missing that trigger because they don’t want to give their opponent the life, trigger, but in this particular case, if the player is deliberately missing that trigger because they don’t want to give their opponent the life, then that player is cheating.
12:55:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep. They are they are intentionally not following the rules in order to gain an advantage. That’s a checks all three boxes of cheating.
12:55:43 pm – Sam Lewis:
Exactly. Yeah. isn’t generally, detrimental does not generally, detrimental does not Exactly. Yeah. So so just because the trigger isn’t generally, detrimental, does not mean that we are never going to be doing something, but it does mean that we’re never going to be giving a warning, a player will never receive a warning for missing.
12:55:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:55:57 pm – Sam Lewis:
There are great Phoenix trigger. They will either get no penalty or in
12:55:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:56:01 pm – Sam Lewis:
the event that they are intentionally breaking a rule and doing so with the intention of gaining an advantage then there’ll be disqualified for cheating and there’s there’s no middle ground there.
12:56:08 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:56:10 pm – Sam Lewis:
We don’t like arbitrarily decide like Oh and this one instance, I think that you’re gonna get a warning for this.
12:56:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
No, yeah, we it’s either is it’s always a warning or it’s never a warning.
12:56:19 pm – Sam Lewis:
Exactly. Yeah. And so this here, this is our, our one like kind of weird thing in that which is chalice of the void which is whenever player casts a spell with Mana value equal to the number of
12:56:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
Look at them right here.
12:56:33 pm – Sam Lewis:
void, counters on child’s avoid counter that spell and howling mine which is Oh yeah, you’re right.
12:56:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:56:39 pm – Sam Lewis:
You’re Nice, good timing. Um, and then howling.
12:56:43 pm – Daniel Lee:
Their charge counters actually
12:56:44 pm – Sam Lewis:
Mine is the thing that makes each
12:56:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
I literally happen to have one
12:56:45 pm – Sam Lewis:
player drawn extra card. These triggers are what are called symmetrical and so symmetrical
12:56:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:56:50 pm – Sam Lewis:
triggers may or may not be generally detrimental. Depending on which player they’re affecting, so me missing a child. So the void trigger on your spell is
12:56:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:56:58 pm – Sam Lewis:
not generally detrimental me missing a child so the void trigger on my spell is generally detrimental and then with not generally detrimental. a child so the void trigger on my spell is generally detrimental and then with
12:57:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:57:04 pm – Sam Lewis:
mine, it’s the same thing. Me missing my extra card. Draw is not generally detrimental me. Missing your extra card. Draw is generally detrimental.
12:57:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep. Yeah, it’s and for so for these, if they affect both players, it’s really just a matter of what. So relative to the person that controls the card, because that’s the person that’s responsible for remembering the trigger. Is it good for them or bad for them? Usually, right? So that’s you. So you, we do get to apply that that logic there.
12:57:30 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yeah. Now You might be wondering How do we know if it trigger is generally detrimental.
12:57:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:57:37 pm – Sam Lewis:
There’s both kind of a a rule of thumb that we can use, which doesn’t always quite work and then a resource that we have available, the rule of
12:57:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:57:45 pm – Sam Lewis:
thumb that people will say a lot of the time is if you play a card because of its trigger, it is probably not generally detrimental. If you play a card despite it’s trigger. It is probably generally detrimental.
12:57:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, so it’s a great example. This is dark confidant, right? Because that’s one of those were like, you gain cards, but you lose life. And I mean, just look at it as it’s a two mana, two one, are you playing that card? Probably not.
12:58:13 pm – Sam Lewis:
Right, exactly. Yeah. And so this is a great example for when the rule works, well, there is also a pretty famous example for when
12:58:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:58:20 pm – Sam Lewis:
For when this rule of thumb does not For when this rule of thumb does not also a pretty famous example. For when this rule of thumb does not
12:58:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:58:22 pm – Sam Lewis:
work well which is Stitchers supplier which is a one mana, 1 1 in black when it enters the battlefield to
12:58:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:58:26 pm – Sam Lewis:
email three when it dies, you mail three and obviously the Hog Act X are playing this card because of these triggers.
12:58:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:58:36 pm – Sam Lewis:
But it But it is still categorized as generally detrimental
12:58:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, because widely milling yourself is bad.
12:58:43 pm – Sam Lewis:
12:58:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:58:44 pm – Sam Lewis:
Cars in hand. Good milling yourself ostensibly resources in your deck.
12:58:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:58:50 pm – Sam Lewis:
This is not uncontentious. You know, a lot of people think that
12:58:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:58:54 pm – Sam Lewis:
that is maybe a miscategorization, but I just want to give examples of when the rule works well and well, and when it doesn’t, and that one’s kind of the most famous example. Most other things fall in pretty
12:59:06 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:59:07 pm – Sam Lewis:
intuitively where you think that they would, I do want to mention really quickly. There are some things here that get a little bit weird where in particular, there can be a generally detrimental trigger that I control but I control because of you and in those
12:59:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:59:22 pm – Sam Lewis:
instances. So, the biggest examples that we’re gonna have here are tabernacle at Pendul Vale which is a at the
12:59:27 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:59:29 pm – Sam Lewis:
beginning creatures have at the beginning of your upkeep, pay one or destroy this creature. And so if you control a tabernacle and my creatures have the trigger. There’s there was a very long time in policy, where it was my obligation, and my obligation only to remember that trigger and if I miss that
12:59:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:59:48 pm – Sam Lewis:
trigger, not only were my creatures going to get destroyed.
12:59:51 pm – Daniel Lee:
Because default action.
12:59:53 pm – Sam Lewis:
But also, I would get a warning. Yeah exactly.
12:59:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
12:59:55 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yeah, because this change happened at the same time as default action
12:59:56 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, this this one. So that one got two changes, so if I control Tabernacle and Sam has a bunch of goblin tokens or whatever and he misses his triggers, he does not get a warning, even though those are general, those are generally because we don’t want people to be like, Oh, I’m gonna put a tabernacle in my deck because I can get my opponent, some mornings. Yeah no we do not want that.
1:00:16 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yeah. Right, exactly. And also like if you’re playing with, you know, an Italian tabernacle and I don’t know the card, it’s kind of
1:00:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
1:00:23 pm – Sam Lewis:
unreasonable to expect me to
1:00:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
1:00:25 pm – Sam Lewis:
what that does. And so basically if if you are responsible for the me to know what that does. And so basically, if if you are responsible for the effect, that makes me to know what that does. And so basically, if if you are responsible for the effect that makes it so that I have a generally detrimental trigger, I won’t get a warning for missing it.
1:00:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
there’s also this came up at Energy Chicago as well because someone plus a Chandra that gave their opponent an emblem that had a triggered ability and I was just like, Oh hey, we have policy for this
1:00:47 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yeah. Yeah exactly. Yep. Yep. Standard all sorry six Mana Elemental Chandra but yeah, so those are some those are some of the like ins and outs of detrimental triggers and when things are in or not generally detrimental, if you are not sure if it trigger is generally detrimental or not, there is a maintained project that you can find at this link right here. The blog Stop Magic Judges.org Standard, Miss Triggers project where they go through, and they rigorously document for every Miss trigger in standard. Whether it is considered generally detrimental or generally non detrimental. So, if you aren’t positive, that’s a place you can go to look. And then that is the end of my presentation.
1:01:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
There we go. And then that’s perfect timing. So we’re just about 11 Pacific time here. So that works out great. Um, yeah.
1:01:39 pm – Sam Lewis:
1:01:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
So that’s So that’s so. There you go. That is a really great overview of So that’s so. That is a really great overview of That is a really great overview of There you go. That is a really great overview of the Miss Trigger policy. And how we handle mistriggers in competitive and professional rules enforcement level tournaments. Fan want to thank you, Sam, for being such a big, such a knowledgeable and I really like the way that you explain things. It’s a, it’s technical but also easy to understand, it’s why I thought you, would you make a great candidate for for doing a presentation on this. And then having seen this presentation myself recently, it’s it’s really good at covers everything really well and it does a really good job of pointing out like all the little little quirks policy and sort of give us a chance to dive into why things are the way they are. Instead of just looking at what they are, you know,
1:02:25 pm – Sam Lewis:
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.
1:02:28 pm – Daniel Lee:
All right, thanks everyone. I hope you had a wonderful time joining us here tomorrow at this same time. So at 10 am Pacific, we’re gonna have Maddie Young talking about, starting a brand new lgs. So if you’ve ever been interested in how game stores pop up in your community, then that’s something you should tune into and check out until then have a great day and we’ll see you, we’ll see you soon.