Judge Academy > Transcript – July First Week: Imposter Syndrome

Transcript – July First Week: Imposter Syndrome

12:00:29 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening. I’m Jonah hosting first week, this week, I’m joined by Jessica Keller. And Sarah mocks, We’re gonna be talking about imposter synder and our personal failure. Yours later this week, we’ll have Antonio’s Dinuto coming in talking with policy lessons from energy, Lancing. Eric Ayliff talking about Covid, and organized, Play 2022 update. Then Michael Young is going to talk about combat rules on Thursday. And finally, on Friday, we’re gonna have Brian Perlman talk about creating a podcast. With that. Let’s go to our guests. Hello, how are you this morning?

12:01:04 pm – Sara Mox:
Pretty good. How are you doing, Jenna?

12:01:07 pm – Jonah Kellman:
I’m awake. I’m awake and I’m ready to chat.

12:01:10 pm – Sara Mox:
That’s enough.

12:01:11 pm – Jessica Keller:
Definitely awake and go to my end,

12:01:13 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Good.

12:01:14 pm – Jessica Keller:
too.

12:01:14 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Fantastic.

12:01:15 pm – Sara Mox:
Mm-hmm.

12:01:15 pm – Jonah Kellman:
So, let’s start with some basic foundational questions, for the folks, who don’t know you. Who are you? How did you get into the magic sphere and into judging and where you are now? Let’s start with you, Sarah.

12:01:30 pm – Sara Mox:
All right, how did I? Alright. So how did I get a magic sphere and judging and all the things, okay? So

12:01:35 pm – Jonah Kellman:
yeah, everything

12:01:36 pm – Sara Mox:
So So I’ve been playing since the first coming out black. And by the way, may I say how many how might like happy it makes me saying to say the first one because I thought we’d never go back and I got into judging in 2014 and I was an L1 for A year and a half and then I had the honor of joining wizards and becoming the judge manager and I did that for a few years. And so I haven’t been judging in quite a while, but that is, that is how I am connected to judges and Judge Academy as I’m proceeding, Nico.

12:02:20 pm – Jonah Kellman:
and Jessica.

12:02:22 pm – Jessica Keller:
And so I’ve been a magic judge since 2015. I certified in my birthday and

12:02:29 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Fun.

12:02:30 pm – Jessica Keller:
I got into magic because my

12:02:30 pm – Sara Mox:
Thanks.

12:02:33 pm – Jessica Keller:
significant other at the time and my best friends were all talking about it and I was like, Okay, I’m tired of having people talk around me about these decks. I’m gonna learn what it is. But I started judging when they wanted to play competitively and travel and I was like, I want to travel, I want to do that but I do not want to play magic all day. That’s not a thing. I think I can do.

12:02:54 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Especially at competitive, that is not.

12:02:58 pm – Jessica Keller:
No. I was like I cannot do this and I didn’t know about side events and stuff. So I was like, I judging I’ll do

12:03:01 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Right.

12:03:03 pm – Jessica Keller:
that. And I did that for until like 2017 and then I got a job offer with CFB to run their registration and do other things and it just wasn’t compatible with working the shows and doing the things I was doing. So I have mostly stopped judging but I still do a lot of engaging with judges.

12:03:27 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah, the two of you have been involved in the community. for a while now and at a relatively high level, both of you have been in positions that Definitely, not entry level positions, huh? So Let’s talk about imposter syndrome. We’re gonna ignore the outline that I have immediately. We’re not even gonna get one question in. I know I said I was gonna do this, but let’s start by talking

12:03:52 pm – Sara Mox:
Try.

12:03:53 pm – Jonah Kellman:
about What is imposter syndrome, how we define it ourselves. Ha so, who feels like they have a good grasp on.

12:04:01 pm – Sara Mox:
I,

12:04:02 pm – Jonah Kellman:
How do you feel imposter syndrome? Affects you?

12:04:05 pm – Sara Mox:
first of all,

12:04:06 pm – Jonah Kellman:
What is it?

12:04:08 pm – Sara Mox:
I think it can be well defined by the pit in my stomach. I had the moment that you said both of you have been involved in the judge community, the high level. I’m like, Okay, let’s comment down here. High level is ridiculous.

12:04:19 pm – Jonah Kellman:
but, Were you not at the literal highest level? Like were you not you know,

12:04:24 pm – Sara Mox:
No, I wasn’t. I would never

12:04:27 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Not. An event, but judge managing managing the judge program. It’s not

12:04:34 pm – Sara Mox:
i There there are quibbles to be had over definitions but certainly like,

12:04:39 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yes.

12:04:40 pm – Sara Mox:
it’s always hard for me to accept any sort of like, Oh, you do prominence things, you have extra and that to me, is imposter syndrome is just like I continually doubt people. When they say those things to me and then I also am, just pretty sure someday. Everybody’s gonna figure out that I’m faking it and they’re gonna be like Get out of here, you, faker and something that’s for me.

12:05:09 pm – Jessica Keller:
definitely that pitta, the stomach feeling but just this feeling you need to constantly Be watching what you say because you might speak with a level of authority that you don’t actually have.

12:05:24 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Mmm.

12:05:24 pm – Jessica Keller:
Like, it is what you feel, and what you believe is true. But one of somebody else disagrees with it and they know something that you don’t know that, Makes what you said, Untrue.

12:05:35 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Mmm. Yeah.

12:05:38 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yeah, a false sense of like speaking from authority. For me is huge. Anytime I’m asked to, like, talk about a subject or say like, Oh, I know this thing, I’m like, but one of, somebody knows, something more that I don’t know.

12:05:51 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah, why wouldn’t you ask someone who is more of an expert than me who

12:05:55 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah.

12:05:55 pm – Sara Mox:
has been doing it professionally for years? Like that’s a super common feeling.

12:05:59 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah. Why are you asking me? I have not the person to be asking, that’s why I brought the two of you

12:06:02 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yes.

12:06:03 pm – Jonah Kellman:
on so I can ask you questions about

12:06:03 pm – Sara Mox:
I don’t know.

12:06:05 pm – Jonah Kellman:
something that you’re clearly experts in, right?

12:06:07 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah, this I’m good at I got you. This is a very good.

12:06:10 pm – Jonah Kellman:
This, you know that.

12:06:10 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yes.

12:06:12 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah.

12:06:13 pm – Sara Mox:
not close.

12:06:15 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Oh, all righty. So let’s talk early memories of imposter syndrome. Do you have Oh alrighty, so let’s talk early memories of imposter syndrome. Do you have

12:06:20 pm – Jessica Keller:
ah, Ah, you know

12:06:22 pm – Jonah Kellman:
an early recollection particularly tied to judging in the judge program not just in life because that might go back real far but

12:06:29 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:06:32 pm – Jessica Keller:
I started,

12:06:32 pm – Sara Mox:
I they you go.

12:06:33 pm – Jonah Kellman:
What do we have?

12:06:35 pm – Sara Mox:
I’m excited yours.

12:06:36 pm – Jessica Keller:
I started a judge study group in my local community to better my knowledge first of all and then it kind of grew into this thing and I had like a ton of little judgling but as like in a side to that, it was also judging in our local community, which was really tight-knit and getting to do, like my very first lead role. If anyone’s familiar with Jim Schumann at Madness Comics, he ran a sizable like 200 plus player and I guess they were pptqs at the time. And they I had a lead role, I think I was in charge of deck. Check. And I had the likes of, and some of these folks, do not judge as much anymore. But, Josh Mccurley and I think Jared freight on my team at the time. And they had both been judging for a very long time. They were elf shoes. I don’t even know that I had gotten my L2 yet. Um, It actually I think possibly failed male too at this point in time and had to do a team meeting where I told them how the date was going to go and never have. I felt so inadequate. Or ill equipped to be in charge of the people that I was in charge of. So it’s like, they’ll know, they’ll

12:07:50 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:07:51 pm – Jessica Keller:
know, every time I do something wrong, they’re going to know it all. How, why am I in charge of them?

12:07:55 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yep. that’s I think actually a really

12:07:57 pm – Sara Mox:
Okay.

12:08:00 pm – Jonah Kellman:
common instance of imposter syndrome

12:08:02 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yes.

12:08:02 pm – Jonah Kellman:
your first team lead because oftentimes you have a shadow who is there because they are more

12:08:06 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yes.

12:08:08 pm – Jonah Kellman:
experienced than you you’re like why is This person. Yeah, that’s Not.

12:08:12 pm – Jessica Keller:
And no one explains that to you either. They don’t say like we put you in this leadership role to give you an opportunity to learn with a safety net. They don’t tell you that, they just They just put you in the leadership

12:08:20 pm – Jonah Kellman:
They tell you what the end of the day

12:08:21 pm – Jessica Keller:
role.

12:08:21 pm – Jonah Kellman:
when you’re like, I felt terrible all

12:08:22 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yeah.

12:08:22 pm – Jonah Kellman:
day. They’re like, Oh, don’t worry, they were judging you but they were there

12:08:25 pm – Sara Mox:
You were safe the whole time.

12:08:26 pm – Jonah Kellman:
to help not like yeah.

12:08:28 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yes, they were there to protect you from like, screwing it up in the event going arrive, but they were there to support you and like side stage management actually like within CFB works the same way except you know that they’re there, evaluating

12:08:39 pm – Sara Mox:
Okay.

12:08:40 pm – Jessica Keller:
you but like they don’t want you to

12:08:41 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah.

12:08:42 pm – Jessica Keller:
blow up the entire event because you didn’t know you were about

12:08:44 pm – Sara Mox:
Yep.

12:08:45 pm – Jessica Keller:
Chairs. Right.

12:08:46 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah.

12:08:47 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah. Yeah.

12:08:47 pm – Jessica Keller:
so,

12:08:49 pm – Sara Mox:
Design. It Wizards Works the same way When you lead your first product there’s always a strong second who’s there to just make sure that everything goes. Okay which I Design. when you lead your first product, there’s always a strong second who’s there to just make sure that everything goes okay. Which I the as soon as I like learned this I was like, Oh my gosh, it’s just like these kinds of support systems all the way around and I love it, but first memories of Imposter syndrome. So I come from the Southwest, I was in California before, I went to his earns and both of so my my most Favoriteest, imposter syndrome moment was back when area captains were first becoming a thing. And David Summit was the the regional coordinator at the time and he was sort of like picking and choosing people and people were kind of jockeying to do the thing and There was a person who wanted to be an area caption and and I was like, I don’t know, like unsure if they’re you know, gonna be able to handle it or like organize people, I don’t really know. And so I just reached out to them it to talk about my concerns and I was just like, you know, I think they’re a great person but I just don’t know. Like with a, they might need some some support around this to be successful or whatever. And, and he was like, cool. Let’s talk about it at GP, San Jose GP tent. And so we I go up to him when he’s on his blue shirt day at GP, San Jose to talk about, like, have this conversation, and he goes the first thing he says, he’s like, so you’re gonna be the area captain. And I was like, know, like, with a, they might need some support around this to be successful or whatever. And, and he was like, cool. Let’s talk about it at GP, San Jose GP tent. And so we I go up to him when he’s on his blue shirt day at GP, San Jose to talk about, like, have this conversation, and he goes the first thing he says, he’s like, so you’re gonna be the area captain. And I was like, No, that was not my intention and I was like, I’m not ready for this. I don’t. I’m not like a leader whatever and he’s like literally you coming to me and like expressing concerns over the success of the region is leadership. So here you go. So definitely earliest was being voluntold by David Zimit, which is a very typical thing if you know him to do a thing. And that was, that was amazing. And then like my my second one that I love a lot is at a little while later. I got an email from Billy, San Juan down in California and he was like, Hey we’d really love for you to come work on the pro tour as an event host and I literally emailed him back. And was like Are you sure you met me? Because like, I have no idea I couldn’t do this and he was like, Yeah you yep it it’s you and I just love those moments of just being, like just blissfully unaware that I would ever be sort of like considered for these things while just like, Jess, like, doing these things that kind of put you in that scene where it’s like you’re seen as a leader, you’re seeing as somebody who can do stuff and it’s just just being unaware of it, very common.

12:11:36 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah. And so, that’s back when we were starting out or when you were starting out, do you have more recent

12:11:44 pm – Sara Mox:
Mm-hmm.

12:11:46 pm – Jonah Kellman:
memories that? Do you still struggle with imposter syndrome? Say today?

12:11:51 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yes.

12:11:51 pm – Jonah Kellman:
In July of 2022.

12:11:53 pm – Jessica Keller:
God, yes.

12:11:54 pm – Sara Mox:
Yes, every every day I just recently moved into design at Wizards from product or management and I I cannot tell you how hard it is to feel competent at all. When I sit near like, you know, Dave Humphries and like Ethan Fleischer and Aaron Forsy, It’s you don’t office is super cute. Like I, I know like so I came over to be a people manager, because I like leading people hate it and, but, like, you know, and so I’m not expected to be a designer at all. But like, it’s, it’s wild how much just being in the presence of that, like, world class design talent? Makes me feel like, I don’t know, anything, let alone, like the thing that I was, you know, to be a people manager, because I like leading people hate it and, but, like, you know, and so I’m not expected to be a designer at all. But like, it’s, it’s wild how much just being in the presence of that, like, world class design talent? Makes me feel like, I don’t know, anything, let alone, like the thing that I was, you know, brought there to do. So I suffer from it all the time. Also, I’ve never been a people manager before. So telling people like, How they can improve and helping them with their performance and stuff like that. I’m just like, who am I? To even tell you that that’s rudulose. So yes, every day.

12:13:05 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah.

12:13:07 pm – Jessica Keller:
If I definitely have the ongoing need to both assert that, I have an opinion and phrase it as a question less, that my opinion, be wrong. Like, Well have we thought or could this potentially be an implication of or could this cause like this is what I think this is I believe that something is going to go wrong. So I want to raise my opinion here but also I’m terrified of phrasing, it as a statement because then someone’s gonna tell me. No we’ve already thought of that or we already like. Why would I do that, right?

12:13:41 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Oh my God, I couch my language.

12:13:45 pm – Sara Mox:
All the time.

12:13:46 pm – Jonah Kellman:
So much, huh? So much of just like have we maybe perhaps considered that this might not be an optimal solution, maybe?

12:13:56 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:13:56 pm – Jonah Kellman:
and just

12:13:57 pm – Sara Mox:
Always questions and like to jump in for just a moment to get a little like intersectional about it, like catching things as questions, and never kind of being assertive. Definitely a thing that women are taught to do in the workplace way more often and so like it’s imposter

12:14:12 pm – Jessica Keller:
That’s true.

12:14:16 pm – Sara Mox:
system. Imposter syndrome is like crazily, disproportionately experienced by women, just throwing it out. And imposter system. Imposter syndrome is like crazily, disproportionately experienced by women, just throwing it out. And that’s the only thing I got

12:14:26 pm – Jonah Kellman:
oh, don’t work.

12:14:26 pm – Sara Mox:
there.

12:14:27 pm – Jonah Kellman:
No, no,

12:14:27 pm – Sara Mox:
I got there chat.

12:14:27 pm – Jonah Kellman:
We’re gonna, we’re gonna open that door and push it a little bit further

12:14:30 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:14:31 pm – Jonah Kellman:
further, because this is something

12:14:32 pm – Sara Mox:
Okay.

12:14:32 pm – Jonah Kellman:
want to talk about, sometimes

12:14:34 pm – Sara Mox:
Sure.

12:14:35 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Sometimes you’ll feel like, you don’t fit into a roller position because of external judgment right, either, somebody will talk over you in a meeting or in a conversation or worse. They’ll wait until you finish saying your thought you get no response and then they’ll say it themselves and people with Oh that’s a good idea.

12:14:52 pm – Jessica Keller:
oh,

12:14:54 pm – Sara Mox:
No.

12:14:54 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Um Um and I really want to point out that isn’t imposter syndrome, that is other people. Passing judgment on you. Other people, that is an external thing and that’s something that does need to be talked about, because it does affect People various minorities more severely than it does people and the majority. But It’s not imposterous symptom and so it needs to be treated differently. We’re gonna talk about some

12:15:22 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:15:24 pm – Jonah Kellman:
mechanisms for imposter syndrome and how you can get better. However, at times.

12:15:28 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:15:30 pm – Jonah Kellman:
if you think that like if you’re being talked over or if you’re suggestions, aren’t being listened to Just focusing on yourself and working internally won’t solve that problem. And so this is just a general I don’t know, PSA of keep an eye out and yeah, you might be suffering from imposter syndrome. But also keep in mind that it might not be. And if You can’t find a solution internally. It might be external, it might be external judgment. That is not your fault that is on somebody else and there are other ways to deal with that. And that’s something that we’ll talk about probably on a first week in the future. But if either of you have anything, you would like to add, I would be delighted to have you ramble for a few minutes on that topic. Because it is important.

12:16:18 pm – Sara Mox:
Hell, yes.

12:16:20 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Sarah.

12:16:20 pm – Sara Mox:
It’s super important.

12:16:21 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yes.

12:16:21 pm – Sara Mox:
So this is like, just thanks for following on to this whole like meeting dynamic thing. It’s super tough sometimes because I can feel very much like I’m gonna room of smart people and etc. But when you’re getting talked over a lot and when somebody else is repeating your ideas, I think one of the most important pieces of advice that I give people is I going to every meeting room with a champion already identified. And the champion is person who will,

12:16:51 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yeah.

12:16:52 pm – Sara Mox:
who is aware that this is happening to you, that you’re being talked over. That your ideas are being taken and that you’re just generally not getting your place at the table that you deserve a place at and your champions job through that whole meeting is to, you know, when you have, when somebody takes your ideas, they say, I think Jess said that. First, just do you want to elaborate on that or to notice when you’re kind of being talked over, or when you’re feeling quiet? I’m like I think, I think Jonah had Thing to say, Hey, Jonah, can you can you are talking about it really like, literally just breaking up. Those conversational, habits is not something you can do alone, and you should never expect yourself to do it alone because it’s really hard. It’s easy to get intimidated and feel like Look, I, you know, I don’t know what I’m talking about, but just go in with a friend and you will have a much better time in meetings.

12:17:43 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Adding on to that if you have to if you’re on your own you have to interrupt over and over and over and over again. And it feels like you’re making no progress and having an ally. I love that.

12:17:56 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah, it’s very fun.

12:17:57 pm – Jessica Keller:
I love that too. I’ve never considered that. I am. I feel a little bit like on the back foot talking about this particular topic, because I’m pretty blessed that our team is very tight-knit. And we tend to behave a little bit like a family. And when someone starts talking over, someone, or somebody takes someone’s idea, like they get called on the spot, right? It’s like, Oh, I feel like this

12:18:15 pm – Sara Mox:
Now.

12:18:16 pm – Jessica Keller:
person said that first,

12:18:18 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:18:19 pm – Jessica Keller:
which I’m super blessed to get to work in that environment. But I do feel a little bit on the

12:18:22 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:18:23 pm – Jessica Keller:
back foot like, talking to the corporate structure because I haven’t often been in that position.

12:18:27 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:18:27 pm – Jessica Keller:
Just Just because I’ve worked at a lot of small companies,

12:18:30 pm – Sara Mox:
I mean I’ve seen it happen in judge meetings like you know I’m seeing it happen in L3 meetings for sure whereas just like there’s somebody who’s super passionate about a thing and then like nobody else gets to talk. It’s really like I think it’s a large group kind of thing and I I love so much that you have like such a

12:18:46 pm – Jessica Keller:
That’s true.

12:18:47 pm – Sara Mox:
supportive team. I I have that on my like smaller team but I think it’s it’s when you get in this larger groups we’re not. Everbody knows each other’s conversational patterns, it’s tough for sure.

12:18:56 pm – Jessica Keller:
Absolutely.

12:18:59 pm – Jonah Kellman:
That’s also a challenge with judge meetings team meetings because very often, you’re gonna have a team of

12:19:03 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:19:06 pm – Jonah Kellman:
four or five people, and you might not get a chance to talk with anybody before the event and you have your first team meeting or you might not know anybody on the team and that makes it even harder to speak up. Even if you’re in the lead position you and it’s weird if you’re in the lead position and you want somebody on the Game to be bolstering your authority because there’s some weird undermining to your authority. If you’re supposed to be in charge and needs feel like, you need somebody to help you with that. Asking for help is never a bad thing though. Don’t feel bad about asking for help if you need it.

12:19:42 pm – Sara Mox:
Nope.

12:19:43 pm – Jessica Keller:
I think it’s important when you’re a lead to also be really cognizant of this unspoken level of authority. You end up with because you often especially if you have a group of like newer judges around you and you have one who’s incredibly passionate and wants to show that they know what they’re talking about because they’re trying to prove themselves which we’ve all I think that we’ve all been there. And then you often have one who has that same feeling but maybe struggles with the imposter syndrome more or struggle to speak up and trying to spread that balance around. If not shutting down the person who feels passionate and really wants to speak up. But also giving the other person an opportunity to shine is a difficult balance to strike.

12:20:22 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah, and I think you also want to make sure that you don’t push people too far. I know some people might be a little bit more introverted.

12:20:29 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yeah.

12:20:30 pm – Jonah Kellman:
But giving them the opportunity and not pushing them into the limelight. If they don’t want to go is Absolutely very difficult balance. The strike.

12:20:41 pm – Sara Mox:
that’s,

12:20:41 pm – Jonah Kellman:
But being aware of it going into meetings, and going into these sorts of things helps a lot because you can be like, Oh, this person’s talking over that sort of thing. And so, if you’re in a position of leadership, try to, I guess be that champion for, Everybody that you can even if you don’t know them, just keep an eye out for it.

12:20:59 pm – Jessica Keller:
Like if you personally don’t struggle with imposter syndrome and you can just be aware that this is happening,

12:21:06 pm – Sara Mox:
Are you?

12:21:08 pm – Jessica Keller:
but yes, right, who are you find us, please.

12:21:11 pm – Sara Mox:
Teach me your ways.

12:21:13 pm – Jonah Kellman:
I mean. It’s so much easier for me to champion other people than myself right? Like I’m terrible.

12:21:19 pm – Sara Mox:
Yes.

12:21:19 pm – Jonah Kellman:
They’re great.

12:21:19 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yeah.

12:21:20 pm – Jonah Kellman:
I know why they’re great. I they are objectively great, so I can support them so easily. Right.

12:21:26 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yes.

12:21:27 pm – Sara Mox:
And you know what, the worst thing about that, Jonah. You know what it is? That makes you a leader, you’re a leader, you do leader things, it’s so uncomfortable.

12:21:33 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Now. Don’t tell anybody, I’m not a leader

12:21:36 pm – Sara Mox:
uncomfortable, uncomfortable, won’t comfortable.

12:21:37 pm – Jonah Kellman:
that’s wrong, and we’re gonna get that. so, Coping mechanisms Once you recognize where you are. Once you recognize that You generally deal with imposter syndrome, how do you recognize it in the moment? And then how do you manage that? Stress that comes with it and that potential shutdown.

12:22:00 pm – Jessica Keller:
So the hardest part of Imposter syndrome for me is feeling like I’m letting the people who put me in the positions that I’m in down. And having to have this conversation with myself about, did I get here? Because they’re my friends, and they like me and they believed in me and they wanted me to feel good. So they let me do this thing. And now I’m doing the thing, but maybe I’m screwing it up, and I’m letting them down and like this

12:22:19 pm – Sara Mox:
It’s hard.

12:22:21 pm – Jessica Keller:
cycle, and then, I have to go back to the beginning and have this conversation about, especially in the professional capacity that well, They, I started talking to them and they liked me because I was doing good things and they had respect for me and I did things that made them look at me and realize exactly what you said, Jonah, why I was great. And then they gave me these opportunities as a result of that and do I think. So little of them that, I think that they would really like Jeopardize this job or this thing that we’re doing just to make me feel good? No I don’t think that. And I have to have this conversation about what I think of the people who put me here and make it not about myself. And if I don’t have that conversation, I end up like in just a terrible mental space.

12:23:01 pm – Sara Mox:
yeah, I so I get like A, I don’t know, I don’t know what the phrase is, but I I tend to also think about it. I try to think about it from their perspective, too. So it’s not just like, How do I think of them and what they would do? I think about like, alright, they’re in a position where they’re, you know, putting people in in lead spots and like, anybody they put in that situation reflects on them. So, do I think that they are, you know, willing to sacrifice like, who’s willing to sacrifice their own reputation for somebody who’s not going to make it? Of course, they’re not going to do that. I think it’s a little jerkier but that’s one of the ways that I think about it, for sure.

12:23:47 pm – Jonah Kellman:
How did the how does it work for you? If you talk with your friends or peers and ask for honest evaluation like you’re given a new role, you’re given a lead position or a managerial position. You’re asked something perhaps in like an email You’re like I don’t know why they’re asking me about this or you’ve been offered a job and you’re like They just set like I’m being headhunted for this job like this, talking to your friends or your peers, help you being like does this sound right?

12:24:16 pm – Sara Mox:
oh, My my favorite story that I carry with me, still for like, how a friend helped me with imposter syndrome, sitting at a PT Milwaukee with Jess, Dunks and looking at the job application, for Judge manager and a bunch of people had asked me to apply. And I was like, I, this feels ridiculous. I am. Now, I’m a little baby L1. I don’t even know all of the l5s. And just said You have a choice right now. Sarah, a bunch of people have asked you to do this. You can believe them. That they think that you are a cool human, and you can go be that or you can walk away from what everybody believes in about you. And so you have to make that choice every time you’re faced with this, are you gonna believe them or you gonna walk away from it and sounds like you want to just believe them, so do it. So I definitely check in with friends to give me that reality check of being the external perspective. And I also try to do it to myself, like the the exercise of, like, what would you say to a friend who is saying this stuff to you be your own wise friend is super important as well.

12:25:34 pm – Jessica Keller:
Talking to yourself as though, you’re talking to somebody else is like the most powerful tool because we struggle, we see like friends struggle with imposter center, all the time. And I say those things, like I have those conversations and then I internally beat myself up that I’m like. If you can tell somebody else this, why is it not true for you? Why is this less true for you? And then when I have to answer the, Why is it less true? I struggle, right? I’m like, Well, I can’t think of a

12:25:59 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:26:00 pm – Jessica Keller:
good reason because all the things I said to them, about how, like people care about them or they have support or they’re really intelligent, or They’ve done these things, like insert list. Like I have those two, but it I think it is the challenge of Feeling like you’re feeding your own ego. When you say those things like I’m

12:26:18 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:26:19 pm – Jessica Keller:
falsely, like inflating myself versus like, I’m just objectively telling my friend, all these nice things that I see about them because they’re totally true and they clearly don’t see them. And it’s balancing that line between like, am I, am I gonna come off as super arrogant? And I need to feel a little bit more meek or present myself a little bit more. I don’t know.

12:26:41 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah.

12:26:41 pm – Sara Mox:
For sure.

12:26:42 pm – Jonah Kellman:
I I you raise there of, why does this not apply to me as well and then just like, Having an objective evaluation of. Okay, what is the actual reason? I think I’m not qualified for this like for my first few team lead positions like I applied for that role. I thought I could do it. My mentor thought I could do it. What has changed since then? Why do I think I can’t do this anymore? Is it? Because there are other people on my team that I have to interact with now. Like why?

12:27:13 pm – Sara Mox:
yeah, I like I I when I a question

12:27:13 pm – Jonah Kellman:
this is,

12:27:16 pm – Sara Mox:
that I really like to ask is who told you that to myself, like who, who told you this thing? You’re being anxious about and if the answer is nobody, then I have to cool it.

12:27:29 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yes, I love that.

12:27:29 pm – Jonah Kellman:
That’s a good question. I don’t like that question because

12:27:31 pm – Sara Mox:
Told you that it’s a text.

12:27:35 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Well, if that’s kind of linger, it’s It. gonna be a positive effect in the long run but

12:27:41 pm – Jessica Keller:
I think that like that does raise an important secondary thing that you have to cope with though, which is what about when people aren’t being cruel, or mean, but you really have like, not succeeded in something and then what is that duty or imposter syndrome? Because that was, that is the worst I’ve ever had, is, I did as my very first training as Showmanager. And after the, or not show manager, side stage manager. And after it, I sat down and did my like, How did everything go and someone I really valued said, I just you didn’t do as well, as I thought you were going to do I I maybe my expectations were too high of what I thought you were going to do and I was doing it again later and there was another chance but it was like there were things I needed to improve and they had to deliver that hard truth and That was the worst because they were not being cruel. They were doing it from a place that I have to give you this real

12:28:35 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah, it’s I when you actually mess up I think that’s the easiest moment to let it feed in to like, every thing you’ve ever said, you’re to yourself about how you, you

12:28:48 pm – Jessica Keller:
feedback.

12:28:48 pm – Sara Mox:
do it. And I don’t think I have good advice for it. I have had to come up with coping mechanisms for it and my biggest absolutely can’t do it. And I don’t think I have good advice for it. I have had to come up with coping mechanisms for it and my biggest coping mechanism is like if I am a human, who is attempting to get better at something, which I always am, always trying to grow. Then all failure is data. And so like I just try really, really hard to detach myself as a person from the failure and just think about

12:29:15 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yeah.

12:29:17 pm – Sara Mox:
what is the data here that I need to input into my little brain computer and how am I going to use that for next time. And so, like I think the only advice I have is like you have to like get in there immediately detach yourself from the emotion and hatch it from yourself because you may have done a thing. But it says nothing about who you are as a person. If, as long as you’re, you know, taking it in a state and trying to improve.

12:29:40 pm – Jessica Keller:
And like, don’t lose the opportunities. If you’re in the midst of that conversation or on the heels of that conversation to circle back to, I guess that data and be like, Okay, well these are the things that you said, or can you be more specific about these things and then really, look at like, What can I improve? What was a decision making process? How could I have made that decision differently? Can I tell you what type of decision I was making in that moment and the data I fed into it or the logic that got me there and then you can tell me where I went wrong. And try and use those people who maybe have had to deliver the hard truths as ways to grow as well, because if they’re not doing it maliciously, then they’re invested in your growth and invested and you getting better and that’s hard sometimes because you find yourself going to them and like having to admit and be humble and say, Okay, well, it didn’t do it properly or I didn’t do this thing correctly or Well, how do I get better? And they are often your biggest resource for that improvement which can be hard because they were all. So the person you’re, maybe most afraid that you let down

12:30:41 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah, absolutely.

12:30:41 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah.

12:30:42 pm – Sara Mox:
And like to just jump in on the topic of like how this intersects with marginalized identities? Like folks there’s lots of evidence that folks who are not assist dudes. Don’t get actionable feedback. And so, like, I hate to say this, but like, if you’re of a marginalized identity, you’re probably gonna have to dig like, you know, you don’t like one of the things you can’t do is let your friends get away with like your friends who are theoretically invested in you get away with, you know, Oh, you just could have done better. It’s like, no, I really need to understand like you need to give it

12:31:17 pm – Jessica Keller:
How?

12:31:18 pm – Sara Mox:
to me straight and give it to me, like, give me the actual feedback and I think like, honestly, that’s what leads, there’s a lot of like, but on both sides on criticism and on, on praise that, that is really fuels, imposter syndrome for marginalized folks because it’s, like, I’m getting vague on both sides and I don’t really know and so like, don’t Be afraid to dig in dig in with them and be like give me three things that I can do better or give me three things that I kicked asset because I need to hear it right

12:31:46 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yes.

12:31:48 pm – Jonah Kellman:
How often have the two of you received the feedback, be more confident?

12:31:55 pm – Sara Mox:
I think you’re asking possibly two of the most incorrect people in the program, nobody like no joke.

12:31:58 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah. Okay.

12:32:00 pm – Sara Mox:
No, like no joke.

12:32:00 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah.

12:32:01 pm – Sara Mox:
I don’t know, like, I’ve definitely received that feedback but only like basically only the first time, I do something and then every time they’re after I just kind of pretend and then people don’t give me that feedback

12:32:11 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah.

12:32:12 pm – Sara Mox:
anymore and I can’t, I can’t just I cannot imagine someone telling you to be more confident. I can’t can’t do it.

12:32:19 pm – Jessica Keller:
It is often if it does happen in a one-on-one basis. That thing I said about phrasing, it as a question earlier versus phrasing as a question earlier versus phrasing

12:32:26 pm – Sara Mox:
Hmm.

12:32:29 pm – Jessica Keller:
is a statement and that is like from very close colleagues and peers that very close colleagues and peers that I hear that type of thing about

12:32:33 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:32:34 pm – Jessica Keller:
You feel stop using modifiers? Like I think just say it because obviously, you think it

12:32:39 pm – Sara Mox:
That’s true.

12:32:40 pm – Jessica Keller:
um, and that is the only time that,

12:32:41 pm – Sara Mox:
That’s true.

12:32:42 pm – Jessica Keller:
that usually happens because I I’ve got like a background in public speaking and stuff like that.

12:32:46 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah. Yeah.

12:32:47 pm – Jessica Keller:
So you just you shove the fears down and you get up on stage and you talk or you do what you have to do.

12:32:52 pm – Sara Mox:
Yep. Yep.

12:32:53 pm – Jonah Kellman:
I mean.

12:32:54 pm – Sara Mox:
Political organizing same thing.

12:32:56 pm – Jonah Kellman:
I like those answers because That deals with playing into like the whole fake, it till you make it strategy, which is one way of dealing with imposter syndrome of just

12:33:08 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah. Yeah.

12:33:10 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Just if people think I’m a fraud, might as well like, See how far I can go with it. I see to be succeeding enough.

12:33:20 pm – Sara Mox:
I I posted, I like we

12:33:21 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yeah.

12:33:22 pm – Sara Mox:
I like we outline of things and it talks about coping mechanisms and I just wrote, I dissociate like not really. But sometimes I’ll come out of a meeting that I was really scared about where I’m maybe had to like present to leadership or something like that, and I’ll come out of that meeting and my brain will deliver the information. Like, You said a lot of business things in that meeting and you’re really sounded like, you had it together, that’s weird. And like I did sometimes can be like this out of body experience where I’m just like, I hear myself saying leader words and I’m doing it and I’m just I’m over there. It’s it’s a lot.

12:34:04 pm – Jessica Keller:
For me, and the times what I feel? The least confident are in one-on-one customer interactions. Usually when I’m having to deliver,

12:34:09 pm – Sara Mox:
Mmm.

12:34:12 pm – Jessica Keller:
like you can’t do that or you have to put your playing that away or you know, even small things like that. I feel like psych myself up and be like, you know, this and you’re on the right side of the line and you know what the policies are and you do all these things and then you go and have the conversation and I am blessed that. I observed a lot of these conversations from some really great colleagues who are much better at I am because they just always seem to think on their feet. They always have the pivot answer and that is where I struggle is. A customer says a thing and then they want a direct answer or they want a policy quotation? I’m like, Well, I can’t give you that. All I have is like, I work for this company and I know what our rules are and you

12:34:52 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Hmm.

12:34:53 pm – Jessica Keller:
But that’s when I struggle, it’s like one-on-one customer interactions when they like come in real hard.

12:34:59 pm – Sara Mox:
These moments, when people who, you know self-identify as struggling with imposter syndrome. Say like these are the areas where I struggle where they like think that they’re like identifying real weaknesses. I always wish that I had a video camera to go over. Like one-on-one customer action you’ve ever had just to show you how

12:35:18 pm – Jessica Keller:
Oh yeah.

12:35:18 pm – Sara Mox:
not true that is. And like, you know, like also when you’re talking about like, you know, Oh, my colleagues are so much better at this. Like, Yeah. But are they do they have the same internal dialogue as you probably like?

12:35:34 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah, I also want to pull something from the chat from Billy Willy. If you believe your friends when they give you the hard truths, when they give you that critical feedback, you also kind of have to believe that when they say you should go for it, right?

12:35:49 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah. Yeah.

12:35:49 pm – Jessica Keller:
Oh yeah.

12:35:51 pm – Sara Mox:
For sure. many years ago with that but like ago with that but like For sure, yeah, just messed me up many years ago with that but like, it happens with lots of stuff as Wyoming business school. It’s why I’m doing the job that I’m doing is because I believed a friend who is like Stop telling yourself you’re not ready for this and it’s super important to listen to your beds.

12:36:12 pm – Jonah Kellman:
All right, cool. So that’s how you deal with it in the moment. Here’s the fun question, How do you deal with imposter syndrome Long term? I mean, we have all admitted that we’ve been dealing with it for years, odd years on years. So how does it get better?

12:36:28 pm – Sara Mox:
I, so I A few years ago, I went to a conference for work that was just basically like Women in leadership, and I was talking to someone who is in the in the C-suite at Nordstrom after her. After her amazing, inspiring talk about how she got to where she is and what she does and whatever. How do you, how did you? How do you, how did you? I think I said something like, How did you get rid of Imposter syndrome Oh, bad news, bad news. Oh, bad news, bad news. And I was talking to someone who is in the C-suite at Nordstrom after her. After her amazing, inspiring talk about how she got to where she is and what she does and whatever. And I, I asked her, I was just like, How do you, how did you? I think I said something like, How did you get rid of Imposter syndrome and she looks at me and she’s like, Oh, bad news, bad news.

12:37:07 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Haha.

12:37:08 pm – Sara Mox:
Hey, she’s like you know it it doesn’t it doesn’t ever go away like you you get better at recognizing it but it never leaves you. And the, the coping mechanism that I have for the long term is I like all things in life. I try to ask, How is this serving me? There are so many times when you have anxieties or negative emotions and like they just aren’t really serving to protect you or anything like that. Imposter syndrome can actually be a little bit of a superpower for me. I try to recognize when I’m feeling it and if I am consistently not feeling imposter syndrome, what that says to me is that I’m not being challenged enough. And so it’s at that point that I’m like, Okay, what is the next mountain? I need to climb? How do I need to go, like up? Because I’m clearly not being challenged. If I think, I’m where I’m supposed to be which leads to maybe a little less comfort, but It’s it’s better for me in the long run. So oh and also doing stuff like this. Like I love talking to people about imposter syndrome because every time I talk to somebody about imposter syndrome and I recognize my narratives in their heads, I’m like Oh good, we’re all imposters. Yes, cool.

12:38:22 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yes.

12:38:22 pm – Sara Mox:
Yes, cool. That means none of us are

12:38:26 pm – Jessica Keller:
Mine’s not nearly so evolved. I think it it is not something. I spend a lot of time thinking about except when I’m going through it, right? Like I use those moment to moment

12:38:35 pm – Sara Mox:
go.

12:38:35 pm – Jessica Keller:
coping mechanisms but I do think you naturally as you get more responsibility start to feel like less of an imposter about the things that seem less important, right? Like I used to get really anxious about resolving a thing on site at registration, right? Like somebody needed added to an event or somebody needed this and I

12:38:54 pm – Sara Mox:
and then,

12:38:55 pm – Jessica Keller:
would give an answer and I would then think about that answer all day. I would be like, Should I put that person in the event? Should I have done this? Should I have done that but now I have other things that I do outside of just registration. It’s not my primary focus all the time and so those things seem smaller like when you’re maybe making a

12:39:14 pm – Sara Mox:
yep.

12:39:15 pm – Jessica Keller:
bigger decision about something else, then you get less you feel like less of imposter about the tiny stuff and it just kind of builds. So kind of what Sarah was saying

12:39:22 pm – Sara Mox:
Yep.

12:39:23 pm – Jessica Keller:
about, You. imposter, you aren’t being challenged imposter, you aren’t being challenged about, You if you aren’t feeling like an imposter, you aren’t being challenged that same thing, right? Like I have something new and bigger that I have to focus on and so it kind of dwarfs the other stuff.

12:39:36 pm – Sara Mox:
yeah, I think that that law of percentages is super, super important to me and like I I had a manager ones

12:39:42 pm – Jessica Keller:
That’s up.

12:39:43 pm – Sara Mox:
And like, I, I had a manager ones who kind of put it to me like this. He said,

12:40:36 pm – Jessica Keller:
That’s totally a sneaky trick and true like you. Um start to know how to fix things and then you stop being afraid of the consequences which stops making you afraid of making those decisions. And they stop feeling like an imposter because you’re like whatever. If like this player comes back, they’re not in the event, then I will sort it out. I’ve done this before. I know what happens.

12:40:55 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:40:55 pm – Jessica Keller:
I I know the worst case and like you, you, I personally have put myself in positions to acquire more knowledge. I always feel like somebody else is going to see that. I am a fraud or that. I’m an imposter. When I don’t have all the information about a situation and that makes me afraid to make a decision because maybe somebody had a critical peace and they would have done it better, or known better. And so I kind of have put myself in positions to just get the knowledge that I feel like I’m afraid I’m missing and then I feel less anxious about the decisions because if I have the whole picture then I know the impact.

12:41:32 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:41:33 pm – Jessica Keller:
Which is hard to do like that’s not an easy solution.

12:41:34 pm – Sara Mox:
Makes.

12:41:36 pm – Jessica Keller:
certainly, but

12:41:37 pm – Sara Mox:
not an easy solution. It, it’s, it’s certainly like a it’s It’s definitely one. That’s still frameding anxiety. Like we we all do our things where it’s like, I’m managing this as well as I can, but I’m still doing anxious stuff. I’m still trying to control it.

12:41:49 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yeah.

12:41:49 pm – Sara Mox:
think it just goes back to like this never goes away. It just is, it’s how you’re wired, unfortunately.

12:41:54 pm – Jessica Keller:
Sure.

12:41:57 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah. I mean, I’m pulling from our chat. We have a couple people. We have had judge just being like, if I am not anxious, I don’t care enough. If I’m not anxious about a broadcast, like I don’t care enough and that’s true for me. I think one of the things that helps long-term is and this is what the two of you have essentially said, is Look at the scale of what you’re anxious about. When I first started judging, I was super anxious about taking up call, just like Judge. What is the Oracle text of lightning bolt that I’m just like, I don’t know. Good Lord. How, what is a phone? How do I look at Oracle text? And now, what I’m anxious about is, am I gonna handle my head judge announcements for the 600 player event? Clearly it effectively, Going to get this one detail that I care about 90% of it. I’m fine about. But this is what I’m anxious about. This is where I’m fake and that’s for me a much. Like I don’t care about that judge, call anymore.

12:42:50 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:42:50 pm – Jonah Kellman:
I’ve I’m not faking bad

12:42:52 pm – Jessica Keller:
and like,

12:42:52 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:42:53 pm – Jonah Kellman:
I’ve got that locked down.

12:42:55 pm – Jessica Keller:
Like the best example, kind of that. I think anyone can relate to that’s been judging is the terror of being appealed, right? Like that was a such a big anxiety,

12:43:02 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Mmm.

12:43:05 pm – Jessica Keller:
inducer early on. When I started working larger events or even smaller events, it’s like someone’s going to find out that I didn’t know the rule, like, and maybe I knew the answer right in the player just appealed anyways, but really the impact of that is. Okay, so, somebody walks a little ways and either you find out you were wrong and you learn something new about the rules or you find out you were right in players. Just like to appeal either way. Like the the impact, the event overall is the player feels better because they appealed and you may be

12:43:35 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:43:36 pm – Jessica Keller:
something, but that feels like the

12:43:37 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:43:38 pm – Jessica Keller:
end of the world when you just start judging.

12:43:40 pm – Jonah Kellman:
yeah, it took

12:43:41 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:43:42 pm – Jonah Kellman:
years, and literally hundreds of Events and probably hundreds of appeals for me to like, I actually enjoy being appealed now, because it means that the player will have a better day because they were like, I

12:43:53 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yeah.

12:43:55 pm – Jonah Kellman:
can do that like, I’m just like, Would you like to appeal? I can absolutely get a second opinion. If you better take

12:43:58 pm – Sara Mox:
I could just get somebody. Yeah, I

12:44:01 pm – Jonah Kellman:
like,

12:44:03 pm – Sara Mox:
For me, like I was afraid of getting appealed for a while but then the very first time I got appealed, I having to pray was the red shirt at that time and I went and got him. And he came over and he I’m not, I’m not gonna lie to you or surprise, you, he completely deviated and so, like he did this thing, and I walked away from that being like, Oh, we’re just all people. This is fine now. And it just that helped erase that because I was like, Kevin. Why did you do? Why did you deviate? And he was like, I just, I remember his explanation anymore because it was many years ago, but it just that idea of like this person who I think knows, every day thing is, someone who will still break the rules because that was just, what felt right in the time. And like, he just came in and he was so confident about it even though like, You know, it was that was super helpful to me too. But yeah, absolutely. Like I’ll always offer like if a player seems like really unsure, I’m just like Oh I can get I can get somebody, make your day better. We’ll just figure this out together

12:45:11 pm – Jessica Keller:
Okay.

12:45:11 pm – Sara Mox:
right now. I love learning and that’s always helpful.

12:45:14 pm – Jessica Keller:
I had that kind of contextual moment

12:45:14 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah.

12:45:16 pm – Jessica Keller:
when I think it was, Eric Levine overruled a time extension, I did or didn’t give like, and he was like, Yeah, we’ll give you like an extra two minutes and we walked away. And I was like, but the notes and I know when they left and when they got back and I had all this and he was like, Yeah, but they weren’t, we were gonna waste more time and it was like, Oh okay.

12:45:33 pm – Sara Mox:
Yep.

12:45:34 pm – Jessica Keller:
Well I can’t win here.

12:45:36 pm – Sara Mox:
Yep, yep. Yeah yeah there are no, yeah.

12:45:38 pm – Jessica Keller:
It was just such a like, well moment.

12:45:40 pm – Sara Mox:
yeah, I I love I love Jeff’s point

12:45:41 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah.

12:45:43 pm – Sara Mox:
when somebody appeals the calls at my responsibility anymore, like there is a little bit of that where it’s like, okay I’m now in the safety. Net of this other person who’s responsibility it is because in that going back to the earlier example, as

12:45:55 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yeah.

12:45:55 pm – Sara Mox:
a floor judge, I don’t have to be willing to take on those consequences somebody else does. And so it’s like you kind of this, this, net, this. This Swiss cheese of protection from failure, is so important to battling that kind of like fear.

12:46:11 pm – Jonah Kellman:
And there’s a lot that had judges can do during Unappeal process to help out. I had one had judge, I was like, I gave this ruling or I was like was like They’re peeling on this. This is what happened. The hedges like. Okay, did you rule correctly? Not, What did you rule? But did you rule correctly? I was like, Yes, and he’s like Great. Let’s go talk with the players, No more information. Another one, the head judge was like I’m not gonna throw my judge under the bus here. I was like, I gave this ruling or I was like They’re peeling on this. This is what happened. The hedges like. Okay, did you rule correctly? Not, What did you rule? But did you rule correctly? I was like, Yes, and he’s like Great. Let’s go talk with the players, No more information. Another one, the head judge was like I’m not gonna throw my judge under the bus here. I’m going to overturn them. However, what I’m doing is in no books whatsoever, like nobody’s even considered writing this down because it’s not a thing we should do. However, and I think that the head judge as you’ve been saying, just can help so much by either supporting you or by being very clear that you were correct or you were correct with the information you had. I’ve handled appeals where I’m like I’m going to be overturning you because the players have told me something different that they have told you, this isn’t on you. And so communication is very helpful there.

12:47:15 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah, I okay.

12:47:15 pm – Jessica Keller:
I think it’s important. To take stock of like your personal growth to in those moments and have those hindsight reflections. Like I once escalated, when I was training to be a side stage manager, and a playmat that I asked to play her to put away and the other person who was a red shirt when I was training to do it, The person tried to they were like Can I appeal to anyone? And I was like while I was in a gray shirt because I was training, it was technically and I did this whole waffle. And finally, I was like, whatever. Yeah, you can. And the red shirt they ended up with was like, Oh, she told you to put it away and they’re like, Yeah, do you want to see? And they’re like, No, I have no desire to see that play. Matt, She gave you an answer and I believe her and have faith in her. So I don’t want to see it and they tried to argue and he was like I don’t need to see that. So this, like obviously I had faith in myself but then fast forward to like a year ago and I had to deal with something and someone walked by and walked to the show manager and said, Hey, I think you’re gonna catch that she’s in the middle of a really difficult. Like, the person was threatening legal action type thing, and The, the person they were talking to said, the only way that ends up with me is if they threaten her with violence, like she can talk her way out of this and deal with it. I am confident and that never have. I felt so empowered and like, like a grown so much as hearing that somebody else knew I wasn’t gonna like chicken out in the middle of it and escalate. Unless like that, I knew the moment when escalation needed to come and that it was not unless it really needed like external support and I think taking stock of those moments is really important to like coping with imposter system too.

12:48:53 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah, that’s great.

12:48:54 pm – Sara Mox:
I,

12:48:55 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Seeing your growth.

12:48:56 pm – Sara Mox:
yes, one of my favorite pieces of

12:48:56 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yeah.

12:48:58 pm – Sara Mox:
advice for dealing with imposter syndrome, long term wherever you keep notes. As sometimes it’s a OneNote Sometimes it’s like sticky pads. Doesn’t matter. Anytime you get those moments where somebody either praises you or clearly trusts in, you write it down and then later, look at that. Every once in a while, like, just keep stock of the praise in your life, keep stock of the trust because it’s so easy to get trapped in your head when you’re alone. And in those moments, you can just open up your praise folder. Like I don’t mean to be, you know, like some other people who maybe need a little more praise than they might have deserved when they are present, but You can do it for yourself. You can create praise folder and you can then have that reference in the future. Whenever you’re feeling unsure, I think it’s super super important

12:49:44 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yeah.

12:49:45 pm – Sara Mox:
because you’re not always gonna keep that in your head. So write it down, externalize your brain.

12:49:50 pm – Jonah Kellman:
so, What about ha social situations, particularly those tied to judging into judge community? Do either of you ever feel like an imposter outside of the floor for an event outside of working the event talking with other judges just hanging out with them. Asking for a friend.

12:50:11 pm – Jessica Keller:
Really early on and I think I did. And I Unintentionally are intentionally like weeded out until I found the group of people who were like my safety net. You know, the people that I go to the show and they’re the people that I want to see at the staff party, I don’t try and put myself in like I think that early on, I had this kind of ladder climbing mentality where you need to talk to certain people and you need to do this, and you need to network. But when I started treating like staff parties as fun and experiences, where I relaxed at the end and decompressed with people who I felt like I was in a cone of safety with And I could like, admit when I had failed or succeeded and just talked about it really academically, I lost a lot of that. Like I don’t belong here, social imposter syndrome,

12:51:00 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah, I for the first so I I went from being an L1 in California to being the judge manager at where like I was hanging out with and, and running conferences for and doing things for and talking with folks who had been friends and connected for 20 years and I had no context. And all I had was like this sort of position where I was you know, in it in a support stance and so I felt like an imposter for like just basically that I didn’t belong there for probably about a year. After I started his judge manager where just every situation I was like, I am not gonna try and socialize with them and they are very scary and you know, like all these things but honestly like Once I just leaned in and tried to connect with them personally and kind of forgot about all of the stuff that existed outside of that room, all of the titles, the you know, the levels

12:51:59 pm – Jessica Keller:
Ask.

12:52:01 pm – Sara Mox:
and everything outside of that. Everybody just becomes people again and it turns out that those people you know, may or may not want to be your friend, as is always true. But I think one of the biggest things that helped me get over that imposter syndrome is just forgetting about sort of the the level outside. There was nobody cares about that when they’re trying to relax if they do. That’s there. That’s on them. You know you got it. You gotta find the people exactly as just as you just as you have to find the people who are your people and I guarantee you that your people exist at all levels of the program, all positions. Because You gotta find the people exactly as just as you have to find the people who are your people and I guarantee you that your people exist at all levels of the program, all positions because the we do this because we

12:52:40 pm – Jessica Keller:
Yeah.

12:52:41 pm – Sara Mox:
love it, we love magic and That transcends all of that. Some just find your people.

12:52:48 pm – Jonah Kellman:
I’m delighted by both of your answers. Because I do relatively frequently feel like I don’t belong in social groups and there are a couple situations that I have stories of one of the times. One of my friends, Eric, Dustin Brown was like, Hey, you should meet my friend Sarah Mox and was like, Oh God, the judge manager, I was terrified.

12:53:06 pm – Sara Mox:
Stop it right now.

12:53:08 pm – Jonah Kellman:
And And then, And then hold on, hold on.

12:53:09 pm – Jessica Keller:
oh,

12:53:09 pm – Jonah Kellman:
There’s another story. One of my friends was like, Hey, come sit at my table, this judge party There is like, Oh God, she was Jessica’s. running the entire GP this weekend like But you’re just people. I’ve learned that eventually it took

12:53:24 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:53:24 pm – Jonah Kellman:
me a while. But I mean this is and this is one of the things that I hope people take away from this including I think I would clown, I don’t think of myself as a real person. I may be somebody who worked for Judge Academy. I’d be maybe a Level Three Judge, I’m a clown. I’m a nerd who likes magic and I like Star Wars and I like playing with Lego if you want to talk to me about that stuff just like, we’re here to have fun and in social situations, I think what the two of you have said, is incredibly important. Like they’re just people treat them like people. Not numbers or titles.

12:53:58 pm – Sara Mox:
Yep. I hope I said something incredibly stupid to you the first time that we met because

12:54:05 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Oh, it was Probably certainly degenerate.

12:54:08 pm – Sara Mox:
that’s important.

12:54:09 pm – Jonah Kellman:
It was probably because yeah.

12:54:09 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah. That’s the way.

12:54:13 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Huh, but we have about five minutes left so I’ve one last question, huh? What is something that has from day one till now? Like somebody can say this and you’re just like No that’s not true that’s I’m faking that that’s I’m a fraud. What is something that makes you always feel like a fraud.

12:54:37 pm – Sara Mox:
I i all take it at first. I want to say very quickly to a point

12:54:42 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah.

12:54:42 pm – Sara Mox:
in chat that rhythmic makes a also whenever whenever somebody doesn’t want to hang out with you it’s it’s hang out with you it’s it’s really in chat. whenever whenever somebody doesn’t want to hang out with you it’s it’s hang out with you it’s it’s really really about what’s going on with them and rarely about you. So trying to remember nobody thinks about you as much as you do. That’s set. That’s what I always tell people. But as far as like, what makes me

12:55:00 pm – Jessica Keller:
So true.

12:55:01 pm – Sara Mox:
like a fraud, every time ever is and it, and it’s only started happening happening in the last few years is feel like a fraud, every time ever is and and it, and it’s only started happening in the last few years is whenever somebody tells me feel like a fraud, every time ever is and it, and it’s only started happening in the last few years is whenever somebody tells me that they consider me a mentor. Upsetting, I don’t understand. It’s hilarious. I don’t I don’t get it like the other week. I had a very in-depth meeting with a co-worker about her desires to go back to school and and helping her figure out how she was gonna manage going back to school. Starting a family and having a full-time job, which is something I’ve been doing for two years now. And at the end of our meeting at where I’d like given her all this advice and whatever she said, I hope you know that I consider you a mentor chat, I laughed in her face and I felt so bad because she immediately thought that, that was me saying like How dare I’m not mentoring you and I was like Oh no I just don’t know who you’re talking to because I’m an idiot, you know? And so like I always feel like a fraud when someone calls me a mentor and then like, you know, I have to kind of readjust and be like, Oh, right, I know four things and I teach them to people, sometimes it’s super hard.

12:56:13 pm – Jessica Keller:
That was a hard one for me to answer. I really think it’s just when people are like Oh yeah you seem like you have all the information and it’s just like I I do not or like you made that decision like you just knew what was and I was like Oh I just fired that one from the hip. I don’t know like that may come back

12:56:27 pm – Sara Mox:
Yep.

12:56:28 pm – Jessica Keller:
and bite me and it just like people. I think the moment it it is not so much. Something that someone says to me so much as a moment is when somebody acts on something, I told them to do, right? Like they have come to me for information. I’ve given them a solid answer and they’ve gone away and I’m like well, hopefully, that one doesn’t come back to me, like, I You know and then you second guess it all day and you’re like I hope that worked out or just if you make some big sweeping thing that it like you, you don’t have all of the information you just have to do it. I feel I sit on that all day, hoping that it went fine.

12:57:05 pm – Sara Mox:
Help.

12:57:06 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah. Well.

12:57:08 pm – Sara Mox:
And run that brings it up in the chat. Again, good decision making isn’t

12:57:09 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah.

12:57:10 pm – Sara Mox:
being ran. It’s being prepared to the

12:57:11 pm – Jessica Keller:
Oh yeah.

12:57:12 pm – Sara Mox:
consequences. The decision. It’s real

12:57:13 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah.

12:57:15 pm – Jessica Keller:
It’s about you Jonah.

12:57:17 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Ah it’s very similar to Sarah’s whenever anybody’s, like I respect you like for whatever reason. It’s just like Do you understand?

12:57:28 pm – Sara Mox:
Now, are you aware?

12:57:28 pm – Jonah Kellman:
And then I think about it and I’m like, Okay I understand from your perspective, why you like I I respect the like I respect the people who say they respect me more that I respect myself, right? And so I’m like, Okay I can’t laugh in your face because that would be rude to you. I’m gonna laugh internally and then

12:57:44 pm – Jessica Keller:
Well, Colin Sarah out.

12:57:45 pm – Jonah Kellman:
process Feel big. But yeah, well that’s somebody’s just like, Yeah, you’re really great at this. I’m like, No, I’m not. I just managed to have not failed

12:57:56 pm – Sara Mox:
I,

12:57:57 pm – Jonah Kellman:
yet.

12:57:58 pm – Sara Mox:
Was, it was bringing back to to Jess. Don’t walk away from what people believe in. You just when people say

12:58:05 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah.

12:58:05 pm – Sara Mox:
that, just take it. That’s the choice. You have. You have.

12:58:09 pm – Jonah Kellman:
that’s,

12:58:10 pm – Sara Mox:
The choice to believe them, You got to do it. It’s it’s such a hard fight.

12:58:12 pm – Jonah Kellman:
I can be a challenge. Yeah.

12:58:14 pm – Sara Mox:
It’s a big challenge.

12:58:14 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Well, all right. Fantastic. Do either of you have any last thoughts before we close at today’s show.

12:58:22 pm – Jessica Keller:
It never goes away but don’t let that be a discouragement to you, it gets better in different ways or you grow

12:58:27 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah.

12:58:30 pm – Jessica Keller:
you grow. And that is why it stays with you, right? Like it is a mark of your continuing to improve and achieve and succeed. And so don’t let the fact that you continue to feel like maybe it’s not gone mean that you haven’t succeeded and look at your past successes or the things that used to make you feel like an imposter and the ones that maybe don’t anymore like taking that getting appealed or just giving a judge ruling in the first place.

12:58:57 pm – Sara Mox:
Yeah, I am all of the things that Jeff said, just any time that you think that you’re alone, ask somebody, you respect, if they struggle with it and they will 99% of the time, say Yes, we are. All imposters, which means none of us are and that’s what you got to take with you.

12:59:14 pm – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah, at a couple weeks ago, I asked on Facebook. Hey, people talk to me about imposters and that’s where I found the two you. And that’s where I found like 20 or 30, or 40 other people who are like,

12:59:24 pm – Jessica Keller:
Cup.

12:59:24 pm – Jonah Kellman:
please, And it affects everybody at all levels of the program from rules advisors to folks who just play magic. I know that there are plenty of pros, who don’t think that they’re good at magic. It’s like you have won a pro tour. You’re actually good at this game. It wasn’t just luck. There was some skill involved but it’s something that happens to everyone and just accepting that you might actually be good is an important first step. With that. That’s all the time we have for today, tomorrow at 10 AM Pacific, we’ll have Antonio Senuto talking about policy lessons from Nrg