Judge Academy > Transcript – March First Week: Tournament Policy

Transcript – March First Week: Tournament Policy

4:31:54 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hello. Good afternoon and welcome back to Judge Academy’s first week series. Today we’re gonna be talking policy with Scott Laraby from Wizards of the Coast who is very gracious to join us and give us a little bit of his time today. How you doing today Scott?

4:32:08 pm – Scott Larabee:
I’m doing good. Hey everybody.

4:32:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
So to get this kicked off, if you could, please introduce yourself and describe your position with wizards, and which documents you’re in charge of, we have a an idea.

4:32:19 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:32:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
What you do know there.

4:32:21 pm – Scott Larabee:
So, my name is Scott Larabee. I’ve been involved with magic since January of 1994. I’ve been running tournaments since mid-95. I was one of the first five. Level three judges back in 1996. I’ve been involved with the Judge program, almost my entire career with magic more indirectly now. But I am the play Teen Senior Operations Manager in Studio X. That’s a very fancy title for I’m in charge of structures and policy and the tournament director of our high level World Championship Pro tour, slash Mythic Championship level stuff. And I’m also in charge of tournament policy in charge of the Magic Tournament rules. I am nominally in charge of the infraction procedure guide although our good friend, Mr. Toby Elliott. That’s his document, the jar, the judging at regular and also any invitation policies we have and policies that exist in fact, sheets, and any other small separate documents, it was all run through me at some point.

4:33:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right on? Yeah, I remember when I first saw first started, judging about 2004 and I remember the premier event invitation policy was definitely a document that was

4:33:32 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:33:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
That was regularly

4:33:35 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:33:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
At the time. Very excellent.

4:33:38 pm – Scott Larabee:
And it will be again soon.

4:33:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
That’s, I love to hear that.

4:33:39 pm – Scott Larabee:
Yeah. Yeah.

4:33:42 pm – Daniel Lee:
Um, okay, so in particular with regards to the Magic Tournament rules because when we’re talking policy, we are primarily think we primarily think about the MTR and the IPG themselves. So how would you describe the overall philosophy? That guides decisions that are made for the current MTR?

4:34:00 pm – Scott Larabee:
The I would say that the current MTR is it’s a bit bloated, right now, Toby Elliott, and I are actually working on a top to bottom rerite of that, which we hope to have some time a little bit later in the spring. There’s a lot of outdated information in there. It talks about rating categories, we don’t even have ratings anymore and DCI numbers and we don’t even use those anymore.

4:34:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
What are those? I don’t know that. I don’t even know what that is.

4:34:24 pm – Scott Larabee:
Yeah, right outside of that. However, I would say that the terminal rules are pretty mature and they’re pretty good. So, we’re kind of in this long-term maintenance mode, which I like to code Toby, and I like to call whack them all. So every once in a while, something pumps up that never popped up before. And so that’s the main things that we

4:34:42 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:34:44 pm – Scott Larabee:
do. Plus, sometimes you get a new mechanic and magic and we need rules. I would say that the, we’ll get to that in a little bit, but the major one that’s happened during Covid shutdown. Not a lot of new rule changes during Showdown. In fact, if you we continue to put out new tournament rules, but there weren’t a lot of chunky updates, they were more housekeeping updates.

4:35:06 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:35:08 pm – Scott Larabee:
Oh, there’s new sets coming out.

4:35:09 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:35:09 pm – Scott Larabee:
The big one though was with adventures. The forgotten realms, we introduce nice rolling.

4:35:12 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:35:13 pm – Scott Larabee:
So we have to come up with dice rolling. But overall, first of all, the the rules, the tournament rules. Number one, Guidance is set up a set of tournament rules such that, you know, people can’t cheat, that’s number one. So the number one thing we want to do

4:35:31 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:35:33 pm – Scott Larabee:
and I think it’s everybody knows cheating is willfully, breaking the rules and all other penalties involve

4:35:38 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:35:39 pm – Scott Larabee:
accidentally breaking the rules.

4:35:40 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:35:41 pm – Scott Larabee:
So that’s our number one thing. Our number two thing is to, we also want to keep up with the comp rules. So as new rules are introduced, sometimes, we need to change the tournament rules to account for those new rules, with dice rolling being the, the big meatball out there,

4:35:54 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:35:55 pm – Scott Larabee:
now. And then we’re constantly taking feedback from judges and players like things happen in tournaments. And somebody says, Hey, I don’t think this is covered by the trip This happened. I don’t think everybody, tournament rules and Toby and I will knock that around and decide. Is this something we really need? Or is this something that

4:36:12 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:36:13 pm – Scott Larabee:
Has a more obvious outcome even though it’s not specifically stated in the rules. We like to, you know, rules have both things that are proscribed things, you must do. And then there are things that are not allowed. And a lot of times things are in between, you know, you can’t make an exhaustive list of rules either pro

4:36:32 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:36:32 pm – Scott Larabee:
or, you know, either proscriptive or, you know, and anti that things. You can’t, you can’t have a laundry list of things you’re not allowed to do in a tournament, but as things come up and we feel that they’re important, we do that. We also tend to, We tend to edit these rules tend to come from the top down. So usually something happens at a pro to her and then we Oh, we gotta, we

4:36:51 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:36:53 pm – Scott Larabee:
got to fix that because we all we all know that if something happens in a pro tour, it filters down rapidly. So try and plug those holes as

4:36:58 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:37:00 pm – Scott Larabee:
quickly as we can. Um, in the case of things like, you know, the dice rolling rules quickly as we can. Um, in the case of things, like, You know, the dice rolling rules those. Those are what I call practicality. The good news on the diets rolling is that we had already had a bunch of rules for nice

4:37:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, did you?

4:37:18 pm – Scott Larabee:
Dream Blade. How many of you remember Dreamblade? If you’re on back, then we also a D&D

4:37:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
I remember Dream Blade. Yeah.

4:37:23 pm – Scott Larabee:
Minis, Access and Allies Minis. And we had MLB, actually our major League Baseball game. We had out of 20-sided, die.

4:37:29 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:37:31 pm – Scott Larabee:
And needed rules for competitive. Play about what happens. If it diescocks, that’s the most common thing.

4:37:36 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:37:37 pm – Scott Larabee:
What happens, die roles on the floor, is it a reroll, or do you go with what you’ve got? So, luckily, we had a lot of those rules all already What happens. is it a reroll, or do you go with reroll, or Do you go with what you’ve got? So, luckily, we had a lot of those rules all already

4:37:48 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:37:49 pm – Scott Larabee:
Those were done prior to Toby kind of coming on board and helping us out with tournament rules so he wanted. So we got a little Toby Elliott flair on them, but other than that, they were pretty much copied over verbatim. And interestingly enough haven’t really seen a road test yet. Anything. So it’ll be interesting to see when we come back, and if we have a tournament that uses die, you know, we’re dice actually hit the board at a competitive, highly

4:38:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
You know.

4:38:17 pm – Scott Larabee:
Highly competitive level, Do we need to make changes? We don’t know. I mean often Toby and I will put a rule in there and then we’ll see what happens. And sometimes we make changes most often we don’t, but That’s I would say, Yeah. So the philosophy right now is just keep it keeping up with tech is really what it is, you know, new rules, new technologies, a big part of it too.

4:38:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh sure.

4:38:41 pm – Scott Larabee:
I’m gonna get to that in one of the later questions. I know.

4:38:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right on. Yeah, so it’s funny because the I don’t know that it was widely realized that a lot of folks realized that, you know, wizards of the coast as this meal large company, has these other games that already had this stuff. So that was a real, That’s a really neat resource to be able to pull from is like, Yeah, sure. This is an, This is a relatively new problem for magic, but it’s not a new problem for any of these other

4:39:09 pm – Scott Larabee:
hmm, it’s actually not it’s not a new

4:39:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
properties that you guys have access to. So

4:39:12 pm – Scott Larabee:
new problem for games in general

4:39:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Right, exactly.

4:39:15 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:39:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
It just it It just, it just hadn’t been something that needed to be codified

4:39:18 pm – Scott Larabee:
Some of the some of the oldest games

4:39:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
Just yet then

4:39:20 pm – Scott Larabee:
in history going back to Egypt to use dice, people have been dealing with dice problems for years. So it was a even when we were coming

4:39:26 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:39:27 pm – Scott Larabee:
rules for dreamblade and stuff, it stuff, it was pretty easy to come up with those rules. Mostly up with the rules for dreamblade and stuff, it was pretty easy to come up with those rules. Mostly up with the rules for dreamblade and stuff, it was pretty easy to come up with those rules. Mostly. There are around what happens. If people can’t agree. What was rolled. other than that you know and then for for magic specifically the big one we had with the AFR which is the one that everybody wanted to know was is a spin down a legal die President 20

4:39:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Yeah.

4:39:48 pm – Scott Larabee:
fighter answer. No it isn’t. So that was the big one with that’s

4:39:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
There you go.

4:39:52 pm – Scott Larabee:
mostly what everybody wanted to know. Are you gonna allow spin downs? And once we said no, it was kind of like, okay, move on.

4:39:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Yeah, those.

4:39:58 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:39:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. That was the only really big question. I remember the all the conversations leading up to that was definitely a quote like everyone tried to litigate it themselves with they’re trying like, Oh, is this is this a fair die?

4:40:08 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:40:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
fair die? Well if you roll it fair, then it’s fair and it was just so much easier. Once there was an answer.

4:40:12 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:40:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh okay. That’s the answer. Let’s move on.

4:40:16 pm – Scott Larabee:
Right rolling and rolling.

4:40:16 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:40:17 pm – Scott Larabee:
It fair is a good way of doing it. However, most people don’t know what rolling at fair means and other people know exactly what it

4:40:24 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:40:25 pm – Scott Larabee:
means, and we’ll do the bad thing anyway.

4:40:27 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:40:27 pm – Scott Larabee:
So, So So seemed easier just to go in a

4:40:28 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:40:29 pm – Scott Larabee:
different direction and say, No, let’s use real.

4:40:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
I think.

4:40:32 pm – Scott Larabee:
Let’s use real 20 ciders here.

4:40:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
For sure, I I personally think that is that does the better position to go as well for sure. Um, so thinking back on like the history of the MTR and the IPG are there any individual changes that stand out as being particularly revolutionary or momentous? And like big ones that you really point to

4:40:53 pm – Scott Larabee:
so, I actually went through the tournament rules today and I’ve been doing this a long time and I’m moving

4:40:57 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:40:59 pm – Scott Larabee:
moving along in my age. So it’s hard to remember everything, but I looked at a few things and I

4:41:03 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:41:04 pm – Scott Larabee:
pulled out five things that I thought in my mind were revolutionary in. In

4:41:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
All right.

4:41:10 pm – Scott Larabee:
some way, they may have been minor, but in my mind, they were a listener. I think the biggest thing that I can recall is section four of the tournament rules around communication. That’s seems to be one of the bigger

4:41:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay. Yeah.

4:41:22 pm – Scott Larabee:
ones. I remember when Toby was writing it, he was coming up with, you know, Free free information and derived information, and private information and trying to categorize all those things, we added status later. I think that was pretty momentous because it really answered a lot of

4:41:34 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:41:38 pm – Scott Larabee:
questions when players are playing. Once one person might say, What’s your life total? And the other player would go Do, I have to tell you?

4:41:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
yeah, seems

4:41:46 pm – Scott Larabee:
So, So we can’t We categorized all those things so that those things are now asked and answered Judges all know what it is. Most players know what it is. I think that was a big one but, but include in. But that entire section I think is big shortcuts was huge like, actually codifying certain shortcuts

4:42:02 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:42:04 pm – Scott Larabee:
actually codifying certain shortcuts, so we could keep the game moving along, very specific instances, you know, dealing with loops for instance. Like What do you do when loops happen and coming up?

4:42:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh yeah.

4:42:13 pm – Scott Larabee:
I think that was pretty. I think that was pretty

4:42:16 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:42:16 pm – Scott Larabee:
earth-shaking. I think that was pretty earth-shaking. So I think the communication section would be my number one.

4:42:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
Sure. And and it’s, and it’s very important to have a robust communication, guideline surrounding these things, especially when you’re talking about a game that’s played in so many different languages.

4:42:29 pm – Scott Larabee:
Sure in different.

4:42:30 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:42:30 pm – Scott Larabee:
Yeah. In different languages including the language of magic. And so you don’t really need to know In different. In different languages including the language of magic. And so you don’t really need to know In different. Yeah. language of magic. And so you don’t really need to know

4:42:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Exactly.

4:42:35 pm – Scott Larabee:
And so you don’t really need to know really need to know what your opponent’s saying. But everybody can through whatever means gesture, pigeoning them, pigeoning the language what your opponent’s saying. But everybody can through whatever means gesture, pigeoning them, pigeoning The language, everybody kind of understands and having these rules laid out ahead of time means that the number of arguments that you get into. With two people who don’t speak the same language, goes down quite a bit.

4:42:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hmm. Yeah. It’s it’s a little uncanny. How how effective a game of magic can be between two players who do not share a language. Like How a lot of just gestures and pointing and a glance will even communicate. I’m playing this spell targeting this a response and yeah even with no language in common other than

4:43:10 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:43:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
with no language in common other than I’m moving cards around?

4:43:15 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:43:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
It’s it’s It’s really fun to watch.

4:43:18 pm – Scott Larabee:
Another section that’s been revolutionary different way in that it’s changed. A lot of over time is the electronic device section.

4:43:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh sure.

4:43:25 pm – Scott Larabee:
We used to say no electronic devices and as technology is advanced that just became well dumb. Like everybody uses them. So we’ve had to kind of We’ve had a morph those along the way. I imagine that have been in a live

4:43:38 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:43:39 pm – Scott Larabee:
setting for the last two years. They might have morphed even more

4:43:42 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, for sure.

4:43:43 pm – Scott Larabee:
during during our rewrite. That’s gonna be a big section that we’re going to be looking at. It’s like Hey, you know, we’re kind of where we are now and now it’s two, three years later. What should we be doing?

4:43:52 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, the and the advent of the companion app, I think it’s a, it’s a really neat tool. I’ve been really impressed with out with the, the player experience side of it. And even the judging side of it, being able to just hit a button and go you’re pairings are up like that’s it’s it’s really cool tool.

4:44:07 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:44:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
So I can it’s definitely worth a revisit to the to the electronic device to sort of accommodate for all

4:44:15 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:44:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
the all the new tools of that allows for.

4:44:17 pm – Scott Larabee:
Yep. An electronic devices in some way conflict with another thing that I thought was kind of revolutionary. It kind of happened prior to me.

4:44:23 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:44:24 pm – Scott Larabee:
So I don’t quite know when it happened, but there was a time when we codified during competitive event, how you need to keep track of your life, and we said it’s pen and paper because we want to be able to

4:44:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh yeah.

4:44:33 pm – Scott Larabee:
changes, right? Like we want us to be able to see the changes and that’s kind of with with

4:44:36 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:44:38 pm – Scott Larabee:
some electronic devices that track life that can be a problem because you don’t know.

4:44:41 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:44:42 pm – Scott Larabee:
They don’t always have history of the changes so that’ll be certainly a discussion that we’re going to have which is like, you know, do we do? We allow electronic devices for keeping life if and only if they have history we don’t know yet we’re that

4:44:55 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:44:55 pm – Scott Larabee:
We’re that. but that is certainly something we’re But that is certainly something we’re gonna talk about. So yeah, We’re that. But that is certainly something we’re But that is certainly something we’re So yeah, So yeah, We’re that. We’re that. But that is certainly something we’re So yeah, So yeah, don’t know yet. We’re that. But that is certainly something we’re gonna talk about. So yeah, electronic we don’t know yet. We’re that. gonna talk about. gonna talk about. So yeah, electronic advice is a huge thing. don’t know yet. But that is certainly something we’re But that is certainly something we’re So yeah, electronic advice is a huge So yeah, electronic advice is a huge thing. Things were very, very Lucy goosey in the early days about, you know, if, if I can see to you, do I get something in return? I think we’ve gotten do a good point of, you know, the quid pro rules being the way that we’re gonna handle that. Like, yes, you can concede doing

4:45:26 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:45:27 pm – Scott Larabee:
opponent any time? Yes, you can intentionally draw with an opponent at any time, as long as it’s not in exchange or something of value. And I think that is that was a pretty

4:45:34 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:45:36 pm – Scott Larabee:
pretty big one because it was just kind of all over the place for a long time and getting that codified, something that I know that I change. When I took over these rules, was I rules that couldn’t be in forced. We

4:45:47 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:45:47 pm – Scott Larabee:
We had, we had scouting rules for a long time. It may not have been codified in the MTR, I don’t recall, but we definitely had rules the pro tour that said, once you were done, you couldn’t be in the area and watch anymore. And you know, you couldn’t scout and it was utterly impossible to enforce because we want we were also at the

4:46:02 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:46:03 pm – Scott Larabee:
trying to make magic at that level. A spectator thing.

4:46:07 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:46:08 pm – Scott Larabee:
No way. So you had to know who was still in the tournament and who wasn’t and at one point we just, you know, what this is just gonna have to be part of what it means to be a player playing at this level, is that sometimes your opponents are going to be done early than you, and they’re gonna walk around and see what everybody’s playing there is.

4:46:25 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:46:25 pm – Scott Larabee:
Absolutely no way that we’re gonna be able to prevent by a certain number of rounds in the tournament people knowing what other people are playing. It’s just not gonna work. So that was something I wanted to do

4:46:35 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:46:36 pm – Scott Larabee:
was just eliminate that and say You know, counting rules gone.

4:46:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. I rent I ran into an exact situation like that. I believe it was at a magic fest in 2019 and it was a very well-known player who ended up playing zero spells in game one and conceded to not let this it’s not let his opponent in on what he was playing the opponent was able to sideboard anyways because everyone kind of knew what the what that play was like

4:46:59 pm – Scott Larabee:
Everyone knew, yeah.

4:47:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
was like. You’re well, you’re well known enough.

4:47:02 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:47:02 pm – Daniel Lee:
You publish You publish articles about this deck like people are gonna draw some conclusions.

4:47:06 pm – Scott Larabee:
I mean, do I wish tournament magic was something when two people sit down that they don’t know what they’re playing. Yeah, I think that’s more compelling when everybody has to react without knowledge but it’s obviously not something that can actually happen.

4:47:18 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:47:19 pm – Scott Larabee:
So trying to trying to have rules

4:47:19 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:47:21 pm – Scott Larabee:
that enforce it. Now that’s not to say that we haven’t dealt with certain issues like technology caught up with the whole, no scouting thing. At one point we had people that were

4:47:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh yeah.

4:47:30 pm – Scott Larabee:
coming in and they were going around and doing what we allow, which is, Oh, I’m gonna go around and see what everybody’s playing. Well then they were filling out Google Docs for their teammate. You know, for people that were on in the tournament, so that, you know, these large teams, had very accurate. Information, about whatever it is playing, we had it.

4:47:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
now, when everyone hasn’t whenever it has an Internet connected phone, Internet connected camera in their

4:47:51 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:47:52 pm – Daniel Lee:
pocket, that’s a you’re gonna have to

4:47:53 pm – Scott Larabee:
Yeah, moral moral electronic device problems that we’re going to have to deal with. So Yeah. Moral moral electronic device problems that we’re going to have to deal with.

4:47:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
for sure.

4:47:58 pm – Scott Larabee:
So yeah. So on it so unenforceable rules. I think was a pretty big thing and then the last one is I think

4:48:02 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:48:04 pm – Scott Larabee:
something that’s small but I the reason I’m going to mention it is because I got more people saying that

4:48:10 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:48:10 pm – Scott Larabee:
was a good change than any ever rule I ever did. Which was when we actually codified

4:48:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
I’m here for this.

4:48:15 pm – Scott Larabee:
that you that you couldn’t pile shuffle anymore. This was like I had people coming up to me at tournaments going, thank you for getting rid of that and it was one of those things that when Toby and I talked about it, it seems so obvious, like we should have done this years ago. It’s usually things like that happen. But eliminating that is just a method and then, actually, coming up with the codification of it, which is like, well, you know, a lot of people pile shuffle just to be able to verify that the opponent had the right number of cards. And we’re like, Well, that’s a good

4:48:48 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, for sure.

4:48:48 pm – Scott Larabee:
thing. So, how do not allow shuffle and let the same time allowing people to count the deck? As part of the shuffle process and I think what we came up with which is that one pile shuffle was fine as long as it was followed by correct shuffling.

4:49:02 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:49:02 pm – Scott Larabee:
After that, So you had your randomization so

4:49:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
Exactly. Yeah, I’m definitely. I definitely am. that agrees with not calling it pile not calling it pile shuffling because it’s not shuffleing.

4:49:12 pm – Scott Larabee:
This is not shuffling correct.

4:49:12 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So it’s like, if you, if you’re asking me if that’s Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So it’s like, if you, if you’re asking me if that’s Yeah. So it’s like, if you, if you’re asking me if that’s enough Yeah. So it’s like, if you, if you’re asking me if that’s enough shuffling, Yeah. Yeah, exactly. asking me if that’s enough shuffling, I’m gonna say Well it’s not

4:49:19 pm – Scott Larabee:
right, I don’t

4:49:20 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:49:20 pm – Scott Larabee:
I don’t think, I mean, a lot of people, I mean, there are plenty people that were not cheating by doing it. I think they were, they just didn’t understand that. It wasn’t random

4:49:26 pm – Daniel Lee:
All right.

4:49:27 pm – Scott Larabee:
And then And then the that the, the And then the, that the, the randomization of the deck is important. Something we constantly fight against

4:49:33 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:49:33 pm – Scott Larabee:
in is, you know, our people randomizing their deck because I think it’s the thing. They can give you the biggest advantage if, you know, what’s on top

4:49:40 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:49:40 pm – Scott Larabee:
of your deck, you know, you have it’s like having the an eight card in your hand when you have some cards right?

4:49:45 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:49:45 pm – Scott Larabee:
You know, so it allows you to plan better which is definitely not part better which is definitely not part right? better which is definitely not part better which is definitely not part right? You know, so it allows you to plan better which is definitely not part of the game. So I think.

4:49:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
when it’s a game of once a game of

4:49:51 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:49:51 pm – Daniel Lee:
hidden information, unhiding, some of that information is gonna be

4:49:53 pm – Scott Larabee:
X. That’s right. Yeah.

4:49:54 pm – Daniel Lee:
significant for sure.

4:49:55 pm – Scott Larabee:
I think those those things in my mind that were, I think, revolution.

4:49:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
For sure.

4:49:59 pm – Scott Larabee:
I I mean, the real revolution in terminals happened before me. Which was the the early people that were involved in policy actually coming up with the bare bones of anything like going in. I mean, even now when I’ve had to write up rules for new games, like I had to do the Dream Blade tournament rules when they came up, it was like, Oh, we’re gonna take the magic ones and we’re gonna take out the stuff. That’s not Relevantry and blade. We’re gonna add in the stuff that is relevant. So I think, you know, Toby and I have stood on the shoulders of other people when it comes to this tournament rules which is why I think that it right now I think that they’re they’re quite mature. Once we’re back to playing, you know, real in person high level paper events. Again, we’re gonna have to reevaluate that because a lot has happened in the meantime but again, mostly a game of whack them all, you know, things

4:50:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
For sure.

4:50:47 pm – Scott Larabee:
come up, we fix them Toby and I are always willing to listen to feedback from people. He’s got a line into the judge community specifically for that kind of thing which is one of the reasons why we, you know, we contract him to help out with this. I don’t have time to keep track of everything and it’s just helpful to have people out there and then Toby even when he was working on it, prior to the pandemic, had groups of people that he was dialed into like, people

4:51:16 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:51:17 pm – Scott Larabee:
that he would that would bring him things and he would cut, he would talk to them about. What do you think about this? Ultimately would come up to me and he would say, Well this is what we think we ought to do and that like, you know, great or no, just depending on what the issue was.

4:51:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right on.

4:51:32 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:51:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, the I wanted to harken back a little bit, something you mentioned earlier when it came to like someone bringing a potential issue to yours, And/or, Toby’s attention, and being like, Hey here’s this problem and you There was a calculus of like, okay, sure, that maybe a problem but is it really worth processing an entire update changing the language Something you mentioned earlier when bringing a potential issue to yours, And/or, Toby’s attention, and being Toby’s attention, and being like, Hey There was a calculus of like okay, a calculus of like okay, sure that really worth processing an entire update changing the language to accommodate that thing.

4:51:50 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:51:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
We had a conversation with Scott Marshall and Nathan Long, former Marshall and Nathan Long, former that thing. Marshall and Nathan Long, former Marshall and Nathan Long, former that thing. We had a conversation with Scott We had a conversation with Scott Marshall and Nathan Long. Former net reps yesterday that thing. We had a conversation with Scott Marshall and Nathan Long, former net reps yesterday and that was part of their

4:51:58 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:52:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay. Someone brings us a corner case is Someone brings us a corner case is Okay. Okay. Someone brings us a corner case is their conversation as well as. Okay. Someone brings us a corner case, is this ever is this something we actually need to worry about and that

4:52:06 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:52:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
we should be advocating for a change or is it just cool? The moment someone comes up with that in an actual live game of magic. Now then come talk to me.

4:52:14 pm – Scott Larabee:
Then we’ll deal with it. Yeah.

4:52:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, right.

4:52:17 pm – Scott Larabee:
skeptical of questions like that. Like, what would happen if and I’m

4:52:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh yeah.

4:52:21 pm – Scott Larabee:
like, Is this real, like, Is this that did this happen? Is it happening now? Or is this just somebody thinking, up some theoretical? It’s like, Well, no, I don’t ever think it’s happened. I’m like, well, when it does, what hectare because these questions are often loaded and the question

4:52:36 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:52:36 pm – Scott Larabee:
they’re asking isn’t really the question they’re asking.

4:52:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, there’s a there’s an agenda there for sure.

4:52:41 pm – Scott Larabee:
but right, you get this from

4:52:42 pm – Daniel Lee:
sure. Hidden agendas, I’m pretty sure that’s on a card somewhere.

4:52:44 pm – Scott Larabee:
You if it’s from players a lot. So you know, it’s like wait a minute, this this question sounds like you’ve given me half the information. You it’s from players a lot. So you know, it’s like wait a minute, this this question sounds like you’ve given me half the information. So I asked questions back. Well, is this happening now? What did the opponent say? What did this and you get to, Oh okay, I see where you’re going. All right.

4:52:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah it’s uh yeah it also these cool things come up a lot around new sets too. It’s like How does this thing work with this? Hypothetical card that has never existed. I’m like That’s not even how templating works. I that card does.

4:53:10 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:53:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
I don’t even know what you’re asking me at this point.

4:53:14 pm – Scott Larabee:
If somebody’s asking me about card interactions, my first answer is usually go ask Toby.

4:53:19 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:53:20 pm – Scott Larabee:
That’s what I have him do. If it’s something about, you know, actual policy like, you know, Why is Why is this step of pregame procedure here, instead of here? And those are, those are more things that that I get into the nitty-gritty of, with Toby, to be able to figure out what the correct answer is.

4:53:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right on. Um, what would you say was the biggest hurdle you encountered when to tournament policy and how did you did you Right on. What would you say was the biggest hurdle you encountered when it came to tournament policy and how did you overcome it?

4:53:48 pm – Scott Larabee:
Well, this is tough because I have to remember what I thought was big at the time because now they all seem very minor, uh, if they worked so we didn’t have to redo them.

4:53:54 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, all right.

4:53:58 pm – Scott Larabee:
to redo them but patching patching holes. That’s that’s a part of it. I remember one, I remember the first time, so I didn’t really work on the tournament rules until I don’t know. It was sometime in the early 2000s and I remember the first time it was about a week before. Future site came out and Aaron Forsyth came to me, who was one of

4:54:15 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:54:17 pm – Scott Larabee:
the lead designers, and the there were these, there’s these cards that were packed pacts packs. five of them and, you know,

4:54:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh yeah.

4:54:25 pm – Scott Larabee:
know, they didn’t cost you anything to cast. you had to pay

4:54:28 pm – Daniel Lee:
We can.

4:54:29 pm – Scott Larabee:
to pay to pay the cost to pay the cost or you lost to pay the cost or you lost the game and told and Aaron’s like. So I’m just, I’m curious. Like How are these gonna work with in a tournament. He goes, I mean, if it’s the final of a pro tour and a guy casts a pact and on the next up he doesn’t pay it. He’s not gonna like lose the pro tour is he and I went sure is he’s like why I said because that’s what’s written on the card.

4:54:51 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:54:52 pm – Scott Larabee:
We don’t we don’t interpret. What’s really we interpret? What’s written on the card but we don’t change. What’s written on the card and

4:54:57 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:54:58 pm – Scott Larabee:
And the card says If this guy doesn’t pay it in his upkeep, He’s like, Well, that’s not what we intended. I said, Well, then you should have had different wording, but I said What we can fix it. So let’s, let’s talk about it. So I don’t remember who we talked about, but we ultimately decided this is the rule that allowed you to put something on top of your deck to remind you of an upkeep trigger because it used to be you could not

4:55:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
I remember that.

4:55:19 pm – Scott Larabee:
do that. That was verboten.

4:55:20 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:55:21 pm – Scott Larabee:
And we And I think that that is a once once you get over the hump of, Well, you’ve never been able to do that. Let’s allow it. Now I think that those are pretty big like stepping off a cliff moments Because are you opening up an avenue for people to cheat? Obviously he’s always the thing we’re

4:55:38 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:55:39 pm – Scott Larabee:
We’re saying, Do we just did we just

4:55:40 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:55:40 pm – Scott Larabee:
make it easier for people to cheat with this one? We realize that what we did is we just cut down on a ton of warnings. People were getting like up, missing your upkeep triggers was huge and we now had a method that allowed people to do it, where if you go to draw your deck, we wanted something that was very visceral too. Very you know, something that Involve touch. So putting it on top of the deck was great because if you go to draw the card and you see and you do that you’re like Oh wait I’m up, keep thing I need to do.

4:56:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh yeah, I use it all the time. Yeah.

4:56:11 pm – Scott Larabee:
It just cut down on the warnings, like there’s all kinds of messed up, keep triggers that people were not doing on purpose, both good and bad. I mean, there’s good up cheap triggers and there’s bad up keep triggers and to any given player and I think it just it just helped. So that was a big one ongoing stuff. I remember when double face cards were a new thing that was like, Wow, that’s just the whole different

4:56:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh yeah.

4:56:34 pm – Scott Larabee:
animal. Uh, Particularly around when you draft them because when you draft them online, you can’t see what the back of the card is or and you don’t know that your opponent has it. So, When paper though, what do you do?

4:56:48 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:56:49 pm – Scott Larabee:
And we’ve tried different methods over the time, when there were a lot of them, coming out, paper,

4:56:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
Let’s checklist cards the fill in the blank cards.

4:56:54 pm – Scott Larabee:
We had we had it first, we

4:56:55 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:56:56 pm – Scott Larabee:
We of just okay. You can see them and you know, if And, you know, if everybody opens one, you hold it up. So everybody can see it at one pro We said what sleeve, ’em all and try We said what sleeve, ’em all and try

4:57:04 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:57:07 pm – Scott Larabee:
And that was something R&D like, we’d like to try it with R&D like, we’d like to try it with sleeving, everything And that was something that came from R&D like, we’d like to try it with R&D like, we’d like to try it with goes and that We had another one, we had another one in there, where there was just a few cards. I can’t remember what it was. There was a set before before pandemic, it was like five cards that were double-faced and that one, we just kind of went with. All right.

4:57:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
Well, all time with the gods.

4:57:38 pm – Scott Larabee:
You You all time, right?

4:57:39 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:57:40 pm – Scott Larabee:
So, um, with the double-faced cards, I think those things are pretty popular. I don’t think they’re going away. So I think that that is an area that

4:57:49 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:57:51 pm – Scott Larabee:
we’re going to have to kind of when we get back we’re gonna have to decide, you know, are we going to add highly competitive tournaments? Are we gonna try and sleeve those or We’re just gonna come up with, you know? Yeah. It’s you know when you play them online you can’t see what people drafted but in this case maybe you can and that’s just part of the calculus. You have to make when you’re drafting.

4:58:10 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:58:11 pm – Scott Larabee:
So I don’t even think we’re over yet. Maybe we are maybe we’re not. I I it’s it’s weird because it’s this weird thing that is not true in all sets, just some. So you kind of have to deal with them a certain point, then you don’t have to deal with them again because it’s only for the draft. So it’s really only around the time. It comes out that you have to deal with it, if it starts to be more

4:58:31 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:58:32 pm – Scott Larabee:
If it starts to be more and If it starts to be more and more and more sets, we’re gonna have to figure that one out.

4:58:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
And I mean, even even just leaving and doesn’t entirely remove the problem. I remember I was working deck checks at Grand Prix Albuquerque in 2016 and that was shadows of her Innistrad Limited. So there were a lot of W cards and there were a lot of marked cards penalties going out.

4:58:50 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:58:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
It had to be like at one point he had judge had to had to come to the deck checks even go. Okay. A lot of people are using these particular sleeves, these are opaque enough. I know some of you can see through

4:58:58 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:59:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
them, the players can’t.

4:59:01 pm – Scott Larabee:
But they’re okay.

4:59:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
So opaque enough.

4:59:02 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:59:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
So So So stop giving penalties for these leaves in particular and was yes,

4:59:05 pm – Scott Larabee:
Right. Right.

4:59:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
was a bit of an adventure there so that makes sense. That those would be that those would

4:59:10 pm – Scott Larabee:

4:59:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
be one of the big headaches.

4:59:11 pm – Scott Larabee:
I think that our ongoing challenges right now are changes to the authorized card section, like

4:59:19 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:59:19 pm – Scott Larabee:
Like it used to be easy, and now, it’s not. I mean, it used to be if it had a black border and it’s like some cards, don’t even have borders and

4:59:28 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:59:30 pm – Scott Larabee:
that, and just the fact that There’s now lots of different versions of cards that are authorized. So it’s something that we’ve started

4:59:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh yeah.

4:59:42 pm – Scott Larabee:
talking about. It’s like, we’re gonna go to a pro tour and somebody may, you know, and within a set that’s new. There might be three, four, five, different versions. And then there’s secret layer versions that, you know, we just, we

4:59:53 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:59:54 pm – Scott Larabee:
had this secret lairdrop that had sword to plow shares and it used the number two and the word to.

5:00:00 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:00:01 pm – Scott Larabee:
And so, everybody’s like, that means I can run eight because the rules say it’s the name of the card like boy. So, I

5:00:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
That exact that exact conversation happened in the L3 chat on the JA discord like it had like I was there

5:00:13 pm – Scott Larabee:
Right. Ready?

5:00:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
for that.

5:00:15 pm – Scott Larabee:
And it’s like, I think the questions not actually in good faith. Everybody knows that. Of course you’re not going to be able able to play eight of them, but an example of things that we’re gonna have to do in order to keep up. keep up. versions of universes beyond cards that are equivalents even though they

5:00:32 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:00:34 pm – Scott Larabee:
that are equivalents, even though they have different names.

5:00:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, sure.

5:00:36 pm – Scott Larabee:
that’s gonna be something that’s, you

5:00:36 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:00:38 pm – Scott Larabee:
know, I think if you are very franchised, it’ll be something, you know, but newer players might not. And so we’re gonna have to figure out where and how that’s all gonna work, but yeah, authorized card section, has changed over time as things come up. It’s like suddenly, you know, Toby’s authorized card section. like, Oh, we got to change the I’m like, Why he goes. There are cards without black borders now, they don’t have

5:00:57 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:00:58 pm – Scott Larabee:
Now, they don’t have borders at all. The art The art goes into the edge like oops. Okay.

5:01:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
Not to mention cards with black borders but with a little acorn that I changed is everything.

5:01:05 pm – Scott Larabee:
Correct. So, I think that that is going to be

5:01:06 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:01:09 pm – Scott Larabee:
thing that going forward is going to be tricky. We we want, I mean one of the things that we’re trying to do one the tournament rules are made to, you know, catch cheaters frankly that’s the number one thing we’re trying to do is not letting people get in advantage by abusing the rules. The second thing is that we also don’t want the rules to be too overly burdensome on players, right?

5:01:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh sure.

5:01:32 pm – Scott Larabee:
We don’t want to jump through hoops. That’s one of the reasons to get rid of the scouting rule. For instance, it’s just players.

5:01:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Right.

5:01:38 pm – Scott Larabee:
That was kind of ridiculous. And I am constantly concerned about, like players, being able to across the table and know what the card is. It used to be easy. There was one version of a card. Like What does that mean?

5:01:49 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:01:49 pm – Scott Larabee:
forward? I don’t know. It’s gonna be, you know, where we we haven’t. We haven’t had a paper tournament world without a lot of secret layer stuff. It barely started.

5:02:01 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:02:02 pm – Scott Larabee:
So it’s gonna be interesting to see. How that all goes and how players deal with it? Because I don’t think the answer is going to be, you can only use the version that came in a draft booster. Like, that’s clearly not going to be

5:02:12 pm – Daniel Lee:
No. Yeah.

5:02:13 pm – Scott Larabee:
the rule. Like, how to, you know, how does that affect the pacing of tournaments, like, As players go? I don’t know what that is. The good news is, This is where I think technology helps, you know. I think that there will be, if, if not already at some point, you know, you’ll just be able to kind of scan the card and get it in your own language.

5:02:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh yeah.

5:02:34 pm – Scott Larabee:
That’ll be extremely helpful for that, kind of thing. So it tends to solve a lot of

5:02:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Um, do you you mentioned you mentioned

5:02:40 pm – Scott Larabee:
problems in our lives. And in our tournaments I think

5:02:43 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:02:44 pm – Scott Larabee:
will help with a lot of that stuff. So

5:02:46 pm – Daniel Lee:
for sure, you mentioned, the the problem of being able to a spot, the card from across the table and like,

5:02:53 pm – Scott Larabee:

5:02:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
even so like I’ve heard players point out that the the shadow the the black and white almost lands from from the most recent industrad sets are a

5:03:02 pm – Scott Larabee:

5:03:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
little difficult to tell apart, whereas the full text basic lands are still pretty simple because they’ve got that basic coloring to them.

5:03:09 pm – Scott Larabee:
Color to them. Yeah.

5:03:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. So it’s it’s really interesting to just see even even among like stuff from the from the draft boosters as you said like just because it’s from

5:03:19 pm – Scott Larabee:

5:03:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
that like because there’s all these new styles and new and you are we think the the black and white land. Look really cool, like they’re really awesome concept but yes sometimes you do have to make you make a little bit of a concession there. And that I’m sure makes the also adds another wrinkle to the authorized cards problem.

5:03:36 pm – Scott Larabee:
Absolutely. I personally, I like the idea of them when I, when I heard about them internally, I went God, I’m an old black and white monster movies. This is gonna be awesome.

5:03:43 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:03:43 pm – Scott Larabee:
And then I remember the first time I played against them, I went oh no. I’m like, Oh, no. What are those again? Yeah, it’s, it’s pretty so, but yeah. And then, how does how does, how do our competitive level tournaments? Keep up with that. Kind of thing is going to be an

5:04:02 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:04:03 pm – Scott Larabee:
interesting challenge for us. Yeah.

5:04:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
So I I appreciate you not scooping yourself on the next question here because I’m sure this is part of it.

5:04:14 pm – Scott Larabee:
Yeah, right.

5:04:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
But what challenge so what challenges has the covid-19 pandemic caused and how did you address them when it came to tournament rules?

5:04:23 pm – Scott Larabee:
well, I would say that as far as tournament rules go They didn’t present much of a challenge at all because there weren’t tournaments going on. So,

5:04:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
Opposite problem.

5:04:32 pm – Scott Larabee:
The challenge was giving Toby enough work to do.

5:04:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
There you go.

5:04:38 pm – Scott Larabee:
that’s not to say we did, I mean, we did come up with some digital tournament rules, because we knew we

5:04:43 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:04:43 pm – Scott Larabee:
were gonna need those in short order. And those are something that we’re

5:04:45 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:04:47 pm – Scott Larabee:
going to probably be redoing a little bit as we begin to split back out.

5:04:51 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:04:52 pm – Scott Larabee:
bit as we begin to split back out.

5:04:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
It was a It was a pretty quick turnaround on

5:04:53 pm – Scott Larabee:
We those

5:04:54 pm – Daniel Lee:
those if I’m not mistaken.

5:04:56 pm – Scott Larabee:
Yeah, I’ll tell you we did, We were like, Wow, we need, we need these rules and we had like a month and it

5:05:01 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:05:01 pm – Scott Larabee:
was matter of somebody internally who wasn’t me going through him and going just kind of stripping out all the stuff that was paper only and then taking the stuff that was there that

5:05:09 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:05:11 pm – Scott Larabee:
is could apply to everything. And then adding the stuff in that was digital only and then going to a bunch of people who had some experience and a lot of us had And a lot of us had experience with So going finding people, that is could apply to everything. And then adding the stuff in that was digital only and then going to a bunch of people who had some experience and a lot of us had And a lot of us had experience with So going finding people, I mean So going finding people, I mean, that is could apply to everything. And then adding the stuff in that was digital only and then going to a bunch of people who had some experience. And a lot of us had experience with digital tournaments. So going finding people, I mean Toby certainly did his pass on him, but we went out there and found some people in the judge community who had been working on other games with their

5:05:31 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:05:32 pm – Scott Larabee:
digital terminal rules and help fill in the gaps. So I think that’s something that over time will also continue to we’ll continue to evolve once. to evolve once. We’re once we’ve got two separate can have very different rules for both. They can they can buy for Kate even more. So,

5:05:50 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:05:50 pm – Scott Larabee:
So, So um, yeah. And like I said before, except for And like I said before, except for the So, um, Yeah, and like I said before, except for the dice rolling and we’re really like all the sets that came out. wearing didn’t really have anything that was earth-shatteringly different that we needed to come up with

5:05:58 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:05:59 pm – Scott Larabee:
specific rules to address. We already had double faced cards. So, I mean, we changed what they went from transforming double face cards, the modal double face cards, but

5:06:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Yeah, the mdfcs were new but

5:06:09 pm – Scott Larabee:
right, but a lot of the rules are the same. So the biggest the biggest problem there with all those getting players to put him back in their sleeve correctly. Because I mean I do it I you know, you flip it, put it back in the sleeve and then when you go to your next game, you’re like, Oh, I forgot to take this out and fix it. But you know, um, what the pandemic has, a lot is to do, though, Toby and I used to begin to think about, what’s, what’s gonna, you know, this is an opportunity given that we haven’t had table. Top play going on and a lot has changed, What do we need to do going forward? And that was the certainly, one of the impetuses was, well, we got this time on our hands. time on our hands. rules are gonna go. Like, haven’t had table. Table. Top play going on and a lot has forward? forward? the impetuses was, well, we got this the impetuses was, well, we got this time on our hands. rules are gonna go. Like,

5:06:47 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:06:48 pm – Scott Larabee:
Like, we already, Like, we already, we about being, you know, DCI numbers, going away for instance, is something that kind of happened during the pandemic because that’s one event, came out.

5:06:54 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:06:55 pm – Scott Larabee:
So, like, we got to get, we got to take that out and, you know, turn and ratings were no longer relevant. So like you know, that’s easy stuff. But like, part of those tournament rules are usually we add rules, we don’t remember, we just add it, we stick it on the end of a section. Well, some of the sections don’t like

5:07:10 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:07:11 pm – Scott Larabee:
the order of them could be better, right?

5:07:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
Sure. Okay. Yeah.

5:07:15 pm – Scott Larabee:
So we’re we’re taking the opportunity now, to kind of do a couple of things is one, take the ipg, take the magic table, top competitive tournament rules and update them, and streamline them, and get them in into a way, you know, get rid of stuff. We don’t need keep all the stuff that we do and, you know, update them for the future so that they’re a little leaner. They are in an order that makes a little more sense as to how a tournament works. They’re kind of in that order now but I think there’s a few things that could be better, we got a bunch of ideas. The other thing that we’re all so doing is we are looking at we something we’ve never had is what we always called the casual tournament rules. Like there are plenty of events that

5:07:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh interesting.

5:08:00 pm – Scott Larabee:
happen in stores, and it conventions and stuff that are not quote unquote, sanctioned because that always meant

5:08:05 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:08:08 pm – Scott Larabee:
it affects your rating.

5:08:09 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:08:10 pm – Scott Larabee:
This This is another struggle. We’re having like, how do you differentiate between social play and competitive play? And there’s when there’s no ratings, that was always our anchor.

5:08:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. points anything like

5:08:20 pm – Scott Larabee:

5:08:20 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:08:21 pm – Scott Larabee:
You know, have that anymore. So like how do you differentiate them? So, we’re working on that and then trying to come up with some rules for, you know, when a store is running anything that’s magic and isn’t a competitive thing. What are the basic rules that need to be followed? Like, the number one rule, we came up with was magic. The gathering must be played. You can’t schedule a yu-gi-oh tournament as a magic tournament in order to get credit for your wpn,

5:08:46 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:08:47 pm – Scott Larabee:

5:08:48 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Yeah.

5:08:49 pm – Scott Larabee:
These are some obvious things. Other things are every event has a judge.

5:08:55 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:08:56 pm – Scott Larabee:
It doesn’t mean that they are a certified judge or anything like that, but somebody’s definitely in charge of deciding when something

5:09:02 pm – Daniel Lee:
yeah, some

5:09:03 pm – Scott Larabee:
goes wrong, right?

5:09:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
People. He’s got someone you can go to to at

5:09:06 pm – Scott Larabee:
Basic capital. So that’s something we’re going

5:09:06 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:09:07 pm – Scott Larabee:
through now, is trying to come up with something that we can. A lot of people. use the competitive tournament rules to interpret what should happen in casual.

5:09:18 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:09:19 pm – Scott Larabee:
And for the most part, I think that’s fine except that sometimes there’s things that happen in competitive that we absolutely want to make sure that’s fine. there’s things that happen in that happen in competitive that we absolutely want to make sure

5:09:27 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:09:27 pm – Scott Larabee:
But when they happen in a social setting, you can hand wave it.

5:09:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, for sure.

5:09:31 pm – Scott Larabee:
Like takes you back seats. Should be okay as long as people aren’t trying to gain advantage, right? It’s fine.

5:09:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
I mean, look at, look at the

5:09:36 pm – Scott Larabee:
I think

5:09:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
difference between the IPG and the jar right? Like

5:09:40 pm – Scott Larabee:
For instance, I think that the jar is

5:09:40 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:09:42 pm – Scott Larabee:
the judging it regular is I think kind of halfway to what we want to do with a more social thing, a lot of

5:09:49 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:09:49 pm – Scott Larabee:
A lot of the stuff that’s in there is stuff that we would put in there and it would be a far shorter document like we always pictured like two a

5:09:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
For sure.

5:09:56 pm – Scott Larabee:
two-page document like You’re the

5:09:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
yeah, let me

5:09:58 pm – Scott Larabee:
actual rules which are like five. Literally five different rules that these are the musts, and then there’s a lot of philosophy which is like, Hey people are having fun.

5:10:05 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:10:06 pm – Scott Larabee:
So don’t let don’t let arguments take away from the fun, the ruling and

5:10:10 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:10:12 pm – Scott Larabee:
move on, you know, that kind of thing.

5:10:12 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:10:13 pm – Scott Larabee:
So, that is something else that we’re working on. Now that we’re coming, so more on

5:10:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right on.

5:10:17 pm – Scott Larabee:
that Like I said, I think by

5:10:20 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:10:21 pm – Scott Larabee:
By the beginning of the summer, we should we start rolling those things out. We’re gonna work on the, we’re gonna work on getting the competitive rules, changes lock down. Those are actually easier because

5:10:30 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:10:30 pm – Scott Larabee:
we’re not talking about changing much. We’re talking about reformatting and then we’ll get into, okay, What does it mean to have rules at a thing that by definition doesn’t have rules?

5:10:41 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:10:42 pm – Scott Larabee:
Social play, right?

5:10:43 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:10:43 pm – Scott Larabee:
And as few rules as possible. Like these are the ones that will keep everything in the boundaries. And then other than that, everybody should use their best judgment while remembering people trying to have fun.

5:10:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right on? Yeah, I am. So as someone that’s worked, that’s that’s work. Digital digital terms for other games. That’s definitely it’s a night and day experience between It between working one of those events and judging fnm. Even like there’s just still, it’s

5:11:09 pm – Scott Larabee:

5:11:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
not even a comparable experience.

5:11:12 pm – Scott Larabee:

5:11:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
So, so had taken that opportunity immediately be go like. Well, clearly did, like, we need something to, We need documents to support this, because this is our future for however long, right?

5:11:21 pm – Scott Larabee:
Right. Like they’re those documents you

5:11:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

5:11:24 pm – Scott Larabee:
could argue are even more important than the competitive rules.

5:11:27 pm – Daniel Lee:
Absolutely, for sure.

5:11:27 pm – Scott Larabee:
Right. Right. And it’s something Toby and I’ve talked for years about doing just, you know, we just never had time. We were always working on the other stuff and so, this is the opportunity

5:11:35 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:11:38 pm – Scott Larabee:
stuff and so, this is the Now, as we’re coming out, we’ve got a Now, as we’re coming out, we’ve got a opportunity. Now, as we’re coming out, we’ve got a little more bandwidth to start little more bandwidth to start know, social play as an institution exploded during covid as on online version of play. And we know is gonna roar back into stores and conventions and other settings, so trying to get some stuff. Codified now is the right thing to do.

5:12:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
um, For sure, and I and I think a lot of people, I’ve noticed, I noticed a lot of that happening where um, For sure. people I’ve noticed I noticed a lot I’ve noticed I noticed a lot of that you know, because we’ve had this time know, because we’ve had this time but we’re like a lot of things are shut down. It’s like it’s kind of a clean break to be able to do a lot of the stuff that’s hard to do. The immediate thought that comes to mind. To me, is like a theme parks taking right? Normally they have to try and stagger

5:12:22 pm – Scott Larabee:
Okay, right.

5:12:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
them and whatnot, but it’s like if no one’s coming to the parks, just take them all down and do it.

5:12:26 pm – Scott Larabee:
Take them all down and fix them.

5:12:26 pm – Daniel Lee:
All right. Yeah.

5:12:27 pm – Scott Larabee:

5:12:28 pm – Daniel Lee:
So it’s just the it’s the the tournament rules version of that effectively. It’s like, Let’s go and do the

5:12:34 pm – Scott Larabee:
So yeah.

5:12:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
maintenance that we, that we

5:12:36 pm – Scott Larabee:
We we are in the midst of that, we’re coming out of it. We are working on our, we working on our plans for competitive play, that are going to be coming out. We’ll have more on that real soon.

5:12:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
Excellent, that’s exciting.

5:12:48 pm – Scott Larabee:
And we cannot wait to get back to running to running competitive level events. That’s the thing that got me into magic more than the game actually, like I enjoyed playing the game for

5:12:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
For sure.

5:12:58 pm – Scott Larabee:
the very short period of time that that’s all I did with magic. I very quickly got into tournaments and said This is the thing I wanted to do and I’ve been doing it for over

5:13:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, Mm-hmm.

5:13:07 pm – Scott Larabee:
25 years now and having the break was both good and bad. Like it was nice to take a break but then I wasn’t doing the thing I like to do so.

5:13:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, I I feel that really strongly because I first my first approach were that I worked as a judge was in was in San Diego in 2007 that you had a giant one.

5:13:28 pm – Scott Larabee:
Yeah, to it. Yeah, Sliver kids.

5:13:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. And yet. Oh, yeah. And I remember just being on cloud nine being like this, this is, this is everything I wanted it to be and

5:13:37 pm – Scott Larabee:

5:13:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
more and I was so excited. I ended up taking a break. I worked that one and then pro to a Hollywood and then had to take a break and then I got to work. And then I got to work. The players who were in Phoenix, just before Lockdowns and I was like I made it back.

5:13:50 pm – Scott Larabee:

5:13:51 pm – Daniel Lee:
I made it here and then cut down and I’m just like, yeah, I can’t catch a break.

5:13:54 pm – Scott Larabee:
You believe that was two years ago.

5:13:56 pm – Daniel Lee:
Uh yes and no it was a hard guess and

5:13:57 pm – Scott Larabee:

5:14:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
and a hard? No. Absolutely.

5:14:00 pm – Scott Larabee:
I know I agree. I, I didn’t go to Phoenix. I went to the one in Japan instead which week before, and while we were

5:14:05 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:14:07 pm – Scott Larabee:
there Covid was just like there were four people in Japan that had covid. And it was the thing that everybody was beginning to talk about and it was it was weird back on it.

5:14:17 pm – Daniel Lee:
For sure.

5:14:18 pm – Scott Larabee:
It’s all very surreal.

5:14:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Okay, well, you’ve touched about on this, a couple of bits but just to get it succinctly, which current aspects of tournament policy. Do you think could be better? So, sort of, where’s your, where the problem spots that you’re looking to?

5:14:34 pm – Scott Larabee:
yeah, I want to like I said before, I

5:14:35 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:14:35 pm – Scott Larabee:
want to get rid of the stuff that’s not relevant anymore, it’s very easy to just continue to not update stuff, but we want to get them updated. We want to get them into a more logical order. We want to get some social tournament rules, social tournament, those are contradictory terms. I just don’t have term right now, social event rules with magic a guy,

5:14:54 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Sure. Okay.

5:14:58 pm – Scott Larabee:
you know, and then, you know, social format guidelines, things like that. That’s I think where we’re gonna go long-term and then, you know, just roaring back into competitive play where we need to be a little more targeted and specific continue to have that avenue for people to, to reestablish the connections between the high level tournaments, and the judges are going to be running them. Like, I don’t know. Am I gonna go back to run my first? Whatever it is, we’re gonna run and Even know any of the judges. I don’t know, like I know a lot of my judge friends during covid have just decided, it’s not what they want to do anymore. That happens like that happens

5:15:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay, yeah, for sure.

5:15:35 pm – Scott Larabee:
but it’s a little more stark when it they just kind of all you do is see it in the Twitter post instead of at a show or This is my last show and I’m going away and you get just a little bit. So so I wouldn’t see, you know, I think that long-term going forward is, you know, just trying to be trying to continue to be nimble update when we need to update take feedback from people. You know, people are like this, this ancient 20 year old rule. You’ve got just Doesn’t fit within the new way of doing things and being open and willing to do that kind of stuff. And The biggest thing is the unknown like going back and doing this.

5:16:14 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:16:14 pm – Scott Larabee:
is like a little scary. Like I know what I’ve done before, but how is it gonna? How is it going to be different going forward? It’s gonna be really again, is like a little scary. Like, I know what I’ve done before, but how is it gonna? How is it going to be different going forward? It’s gonna be really, very

5:16:20 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:16:22 pm – Scott Larabee:
interesting. So,

5:16:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
For sure, and looking forward to it because that means we’ll be back at events again.

5:16:28 pm – Scott Larabee:

5:16:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
Are there any long-term goals for a tournament policy going forward?

5:16:33 pm – Scott Larabee:
I I think I’ve described them. I mean, our long-term goals to get

5:16:34 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:16:35 pm – Scott Larabee:
these things fixed up and you know,

5:16:37 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:16:38 pm – Scott Larabee:
long term goals are just, you know, continue to take feedback from people. There’s gonna be probably more rules documents that there were before, and because we’re gonna have this casual side of things. This more social side of things, and being able to draw the line between the two. I don’t my I think the biggest challenge will be not to make the social rules two rulesy, right?

5:17:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Yeah.

5:17:01 pm – Scott Larabee:
This is definitely a here. Are five things that you must do or must not do. And other than that go to town, right?

5:17:08 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:17:09 pm – Scott Larabee:
Have fun people. Having fun is people having fun and being socials? The most important thing and I think as long as people keep that. coming in going, but this should be a So the big thing will be people rule and it’s like, no, because like we want it to be as wide open as possible over here. You might be talking about competitive play, and we already have a rule for that, and just because there’s a rule on the competitive side, doesn’t need to believe. Some do some don’t it will be an interesting challenge to see where

5:17:34 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:17:37 pm – Scott Larabee:
all that goes. Maybe it’ll be easy. I don’t know. I’m always have been done this for a long time. The things that I think are gonna big deal are not always a big deal, it’s the little things that become big deals that we kind of nowhere.

5:17:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
For sure. Yeah.

5:17:52 pm – Scott Larabee:
You know.

5:17:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
so I’ll take a moment here to get a couple of questions from folks, the

5:17:57 pm – Scott Larabee:

5:17:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
impose that some folks in the chat and if if some of this isn’t quite your area and you’re not sure, please feel free to clarify that. We got a question from B-PRIL for improvements to tournaments, that can be handled via technology, what’s the tipping point in requiring, the technology, like, requiring online, deckless submissions or requiring online reporting a match results. It’s like, How do you determine if technology is widespread enough to require it?

5:18:24 pm – Scott Larabee:
Maybe that is a very good question. I, Can’t think of anything that we’re currently. Even in the recent past was there, I think online deck submission was

5:18:38 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:18:39 pm – Scott Larabee:
definitely cresting that hill not not widespread but we had started doing

5:18:42 pm – Daniel Lee:
For sure.

5:18:44 pm – Scott Larabee:
it back in 2015. Um, at the pro tour and it’s something that we absolutely are going to continue doing. I mean the, the error rate on people, you know, people getting penalized for writing down the wrong card, just vanished

5:18:57 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:18:58 pm – Scott Larabee:
So I mean that’s you know, a way that and it just made everything more efficient and eliminated. A lot of paper, it made it easier for coverage to ingest and digest like you didn’t have to have somebody retyping up decklist anymore. We just you know you just take them out these these download them so I think you know electronic deckless there’s certainly something that I think you’re gonna go wide. I hope that someday that event link has a decklist and gesture. So that we something that’s just easy just part of registering for a tournament you know, is going in and deckless there’s certainly something think you’re gonna go wide. I hope that someday that event link has a decklist and gesture. So that we something that’s just easy just part of registering for a tournament you know, is going in and

5:19:29 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:19:30 pm – Scott Larabee:
registering and submitting your deck

5:19:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
this tournament requires a deck list,

5:19:32 pm – Scott Larabee:
list all the time.

5:19:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
like yep.

5:19:34 pm – Scott Larabee:
Yep, I think that’ll be. That’ll be nice. Other than that, I mean, I don’t see us. I’m having trouble. Thinking of what might be something that could be wider. Certainly Using electronic devices to keep track of life is gonna be interesting. Is that something that eventually? We’re just gonna say? No. You have to because it’ll just be the norm and it’s somehow makes things easier. I don’t think so. Right now, it might eventually though.

5:20:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
First sure. All right, cool.

5:20:02 pm – Scott Larabee:
Good to hear from you again Brian.

5:20:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
Um yeah from a user bleak oblique with paper with Popper, getting its own rules committee and such transparency. Are we getting anything like that for other formats?

5:20:15 pm – Scott Larabee:
Um, I don’t know. Popper that that whole thing is something that came out of the R&D department.

5:20:23 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:20:24 pm – Scott Larabee:
We my job is not to decide what cards get banned, although I am involved in the process that is the job of people that are way smarter about that than me. My job is to codify them into language. So I don’t know. The Popper experiment is going. Well, I was consulted on it because I’m on the Commander Rules Committee. So the idea was what if we did something like that for Popper. And I definitely gave some a few pieces of advice for going through that. But so far it seems to be working out well and I can I the possibility of doing it for other formats. Certainly something I think people would be open to depending on what they are. Like, there’s hundreds of magic formats, some of them are played by two people only, you know, but for Popper, which exists in multiple platforms. I think. Certainly a breaking point. Like it’s something you can play on magic online and something you can play in paper. It is certainly an important part is become an important part of the business. Although a small one, I certainly don’t see Popper becoming a competitive format at, you know, whatever we do going forward but I

5:21:35 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:21:37 pm – Scott Larabee:
But I think for the fact that it’s played, it’s more of a, it’s more of a social slash competitive format, but it’s got a huge social aspect to

5:21:42 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:21:43 pm – Scott Larabee:
it it. having to it’s something you got to keep And so I think from the, you know, having to it’s something you got to keep track of it. And so, I think from the, you know, having to it’s something you got to keep track of just because it is so important in so many people play it. And, you know, everybody’s bandwidth is what it is in the building. So the idea of going, hey, what if we just go to people who play this all the time and ask them what they I think

5:22:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
There you go.

5:22:01 pm – Scott Larabee:
I think is a great

5:22:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
Speaking of the band and restricted announcement from Monday, I’m pretty sure the Pioneer and modern changes were the least contentious ones I’ve ever seen.

5:22:13 pm – Scott Larabee:
Among them, yes.

5:22:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
Cool. All right, so just before we wrap up here, do you have any specific memories or stories that you’re particularly fond of and your time in

5:22:24 pm – Scott Larabee:
I think as far as tournament rules

5:22:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
your time at Wizards?

5:22:26 pm – Scott Larabee:
go, I think I’ve talked about most of them as far as just being involved in

5:22:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, I think so.

5:22:32 pm – Scott Larabee:
competitive magic. I mean, I I have been to all but 16 of the pro tours that were ever over or that level that we’re ever run. Like, I’ve been doing this a long

5:22:40 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:22:42 pm – Scott Larabee:
time. The first event I was ever quote, judging at was the second pro tour in Los Angeles supported the Queen Mary where I was also ended up, I was

5:22:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
Well, there you go.

5:22:51 pm – Scott Larabee:
of one of these right place, right time kind of things where I ended up being able to help judge the top eight, including being the spotter. So it’s something that I got into

5:22:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
There you go.

5:23:01 pm – Scott Larabee:
really early and it was very easily, could have been five minutes later. They were looking for somebody to help and I wasn’t there. So like I feel like there’s a lot of happenstances that have happened along the way, but I’ve been, I mean, I’ve been standing right over the table when people who are now my friends ended up winning pro tours, like Randy Bueller on approach her in Chicago and 1997, Randy, or your

5:23:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh yeah.

5:23:22 pm – Scott Larabee:
friends, we play board games together this day. And I was there, when he kind of didn’t realize he won the pro tour, like we kind of had to tell him

5:23:31 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:23:32 pm – Scott Larabee:
Did I just did I win the bro door origin? It’s like that, that are really cool just being there for all those moments that you hear about. Now the call, you know, Nesif’s called shots and things like that or just you know kind of being in the room has been really fun.

5:23:48 pm – Daniel Lee:
The Lightning helix top deck heard round the world.

5:23:51 pm – Scott Larabee:
Yep. All those things. And you know my best stories about being involved in competitive, make all all Yep. And you know my best stories about stories about being involved in competitive, make all all of my immediate friends are all Yep. best stories about being involved in competitive, make all all of my competitive, make all all of my immediate friends are all people that I met through.

5:24:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
You know.

5:24:09 pm – Scott Larabee:
Toby, Nick Fong all these people are people that I met because I met the

5:24:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh yeah.

5:24:13 pm – Scott Larabee:
tournaments in A in a in A, in A officials capacity.

5:24:21 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:24:21 pm – Scott Larabee:
And those of the in the stories of us, you know, playing you know, staying up all night and playing commander after the brochure was over.

5:24:28 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:24:28 pm – Scott Larabee:
Because that was the only could play commander because they’re only a hundred people in the world that played it. Those are some of the better stories

5:24:32 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:24:34 pm – Scott Larabee:
that you can get into if you ever had a show with me and you want to hear

5:24:36 pm – Daniel Lee:

5:24:39 pm – Scott Larabee:
stories, you can come up and ask me. Too many to go over here.

5:24:42 pm – Daniel Lee:
I, it’s it’s I I really do understand what you mean like when I first was training to be a judge in 2004, I was working ptqs with Head Judge Toby Elliott Uh Scorekeeper Nick Fong Fellow Floor, Judges Jeff Morrow, Eric Levine and Ricky Hayashi and I’m just like I I mentioned that people and they’re like Okay. Must be nice, I guess. Dropping all these things over and I’m like, it’s just who I was working with. I don’t know what to tell you, but it’s it’s really cool to see the work and the passion that’s really come through in all aspects of making magic organized. Play the successful endeavor that it’s been

5:25:18 pm – Scott Larabee:

5:25:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
All right. Well, thanks very much for your time here, Scott, I think we’re about ready to wrap up. Is there anything else?

5:25:25 pm – Scott Larabee:
You know, apps.

5:25:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
Anything else you wanted to drop before we before we cut out here?

5:25:28 pm – Scott Larabee:
Are not really. Um, if anybody once we’re back up and running, if you have questions about tournament rules, you can talk to me or Toby, we’re not that hard to find. We’re both on Twitter, we’re both on Facebook. My email at wizard, should be very easy to parse but absolutely, we’re always looking for that kind of feedback. It’s, I miss you guys. I miss you all and I cannot wait until we’re back together and doing what we love to do.

5:25:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
Sounds great. Thanks very much for your time Scott.

5:26:01 pm – Scott Larabee:
Absolutely, thanks.