Transcript – May First Week: Commander Rules

1:02:51 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hello and welcome back to Judge Academy’s. First Week Series 4 May today. We have as a very special guest of ours, a Charlotte Sable, a judge from Finland who is here to talk to us a little bit about Commander and in particular, what rules are going to be useful for folks to know when it comes to working? Command fest events, that we’ve all been really excited about since they’re announcement last week,

1:03:13 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:03:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
Charlotte, you want to go ahead and take a moment to introduce yourself and let folks know a little bit of your history and background.

1:03:20 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Sure. I’m Charlotte. I’m a level three judge. I’ve been judging since 2009. I’m originally from the Toronto area but I’ve been living in Finland since 2015. I was became Level 5 in 2015 as well which was an interesting situation doing that in the middle of an intercontinental move. Um yeah I have previously also For I ran. The Ask a Magic Judge blog on Tumblr for many years. I also have written for cranial insertion. I currently also write occasionally for commanders Harold, Calm. And I’m also possibly, most importantly, a member of the Commander Advisory Group.

1:04:05 pm – Daniel Lee:
Excellent. We’re really excited to have you on here to talk about Commander today? So as those folks are probably aware, we there’s been some recent announcements of a whole lot of command fest events going on all over the globe. And some folks are really excited about these. I know I’ve got one right near me in Las Vegas coming up here in early in June. Unfortunately I won’t be able to make it to that one but there’s a lot of excitement going around here. And so we wanted to have Charlotte on today to talk a little bit about what Wait, when players go to work a large commander event, especially one that’s so focused on commander of all shapes and sizes. It’s really going to be helpful to sort of know what kind of rules tend to come up. When it comes to complicated commander scenarios. I know I’m sure we’ve all got some experience when it comes to. Oh, this person has like there’s 15 different permanents that are all interacting in some way. The good news is, that’s not really like we hear about those fairly often but that’s because those are big, problematic things that are fun stories to tell. But the most of the time when it comes to Commander there’s not a lot of really bad things that going on. Like it’s not it’s not a rules headache every turn. So Charlotte I wanted to get your idea of when it comes to a regular four-person Commander Pod. What do you expect to sort of be the things that come up the most often from a rules perspective?

1:05:35 pm – Charlotte Sable:
um, in general, it’s basically the same as in any other sort of magic thing, it’s usually miscommunication, or People trying to do things too quickly or in the improper timing. I mean, it’s basically the same as most other things except in the situation you have up to like four people involved. So, yeah, I mean also yours rules calls as you said, there’s, you know, this the situations where you know, You have a whole bunch of things interacting but those are more rare. But in general, it’s usually just miscommunication or People trying to rush things or react to things when they can’t or whatever. Um, Another thing that does tend to come up is in commander settings, especially at some like something like command fest where there is more sort of, you know, people randomly put together. You haven’t met this person. There can be quite a gap in skill levels and experience levels. And you know, with people coming together from possibly all over the world, there’s issues with you know what? One person expects to happen and it also being a more casual format, some people might just be misinformed about some Rules of the format itself, it’s rare, but it happens, occasionally, you know.

1:06:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
sure, that

1:06:55 pm – Charlotte Sable:
It’s the same as like, you know, most people don’t actually say play monopoly by the written rules, right? Right? they don’t do or do do or you know, what have you? But yeah,

1:07:06 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:07:08 pm – Charlotte Sable:
But Yeah in general it’s it’s those sorts of things. It’s a different set of concerns than a tournament. Setting. And again you are dealing with about twice as many players in general even if even if a call only involves two players, there are the rest of the pod to consider. um, you know Yeah.

1:07:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, absolutely. And I’m sure a lot of folks, may not even think to brush up on some of the details in the multiplayer rules. In particular, what happens when a player leaves a game and what happens to permanence that they own that another player controls and things like that. Like, Yeah, absolutely. of folks, may not even think to brush even think to brush up on some of the details in the multiplayer rules. In particular, what happens when a player leaves a game? And what happens to permanence that they own that another player controls and things like that. Like this little things, you don’t even think to worry about if

1:07:50 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:07:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
yeah, if you’re usually interact with Commander is, Oh, there’s a command zone at this at Mtg Las Vegas or something like that. Where? Yeah, there is Commander there, but unless you’re assigned to it, it’s not really anything. You’re gonna have to worry about

1:08:04 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, basically that. Um, but yeah, one of the biggest rules as far as hard rules to To learn is again, the rule about what happens when a player leaves, the leaves, the game? Because, especially in terms of controlling stuff. So,

1:08:26 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. The and so you mentioned, you mentioned communication earlier and that’s a really it’s a really

1:08:30 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:08:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
I’m thinking back to some games of I’m thinking back to some games of commander that I played interesting thing especially, so I I’m thinking back to some games of I’m thinking back to some games of with my housemates, and sometimes with my housemates, and sometimes someone will be like distracted and they won’t pay attention. During someone’s turn and it’ll be

1:08:42 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:08:42 pm – Daniel Lee:
the next player’s turn. And they’ll be like, Oh, wait, when did that I wanted to counter that or something like that.

1:08:45 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, exactly.

1:08:46 pm – Daniel Lee:
Now, What how do you even have? How would you want to handle that situation? Say that something I got comes up at a command Fest.

1:08:54 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Okay, so basically what someone like rushed through resolving a spell and

1:08:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
So let’s say let’s say you’ve players ABC and D, right? And that’s the turn order. And so a player c cast. I’ll say mystic remora essence. That’s a spell. It’s reasonably popular.

1:09:10 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:09:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
And then player And then player a just wasn’t paying close attention or anything. Maybe it was chatting with me about something. It’s already Dee’s turn and now a real life is Oh wait.

1:09:19 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:09:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
I would counter that Mr. Kimora if I realized

1:09:24 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, exactly. Um, again these sorts of things you have to just sort of play them by ear, see how far the game is progressed. Honestly and also it being a more casual setting. A lot of times players are just happy to sort of roll things back, if not a lot, has happened. Um, but in general, you know, it’s it’s important. Also like make people focus on the game, one thing that can happen a lot in Commander Pods especially with people who, you know, aren’t from the same area or play group as people will like, people like to trade during the game, You know, it’s like Oh you got me you got to trade binder on you. Sure. You know when it’s like this person

1:10:01 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:10:02 pm – Charlotte Sable:
You know, when it’s like this person my left turn and it’s like two terms left turn and it’s like two terms until the person across, from me and three turns until my turn, it’s like, looking at each other’s trades and looking at each other’s trades and it’s like, Oh, and person over, you know, this person to my left turn and it’s like two terms until the person across, from me and three turns until my turn, it’s like, Oh, we have time to, you know, start looking at each other’s trades and it’s like, Oh and then we miss something, we want to respond to or whatever and like that’s like, but yeah, in general just, you know, it’s important for people to stay focused on the game. yeah, but yeah, in general, you just want to sort of, you know make sure that you know you you want to give people a chance to respond to things and to you know actually play the game as intended, you don’t want Any a lot of get and again a lot all depend on who the players are what sort of level it is. Obviously, if it’s something like Cedh or Competitive Edh game, you know, where you’re playing at sort of like the pinnacle of, you know, format complexity and power level, then, you know, things generally, you need to be on top of them. And if you miss something, you miss it. And that’s that’s that right. Um, But again, all of it, it’s a very big, it’s a social format. So a lot of the judging has to take a lot more social cues than tournament judging does.

1:11:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
Absolutely. And I, I can, I can really, I can really imagine that if you’ve got multiple players, as you say from, you know, these are random folks that you’ve never played with before. And so you could run into one of the situations where like I said a like a lot of folks are probably okay, like rewinding the game back so that someone can take an action that they should have been able to take but maybe one of those players isn’t so okay with Emma’s. Like well that was kind of your responsibility to pay attention and you weren’t so you missed your chance and that could cause I could imagine that could cause quite a lotion

1:11:42 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. You know, but in that case, you just have to Keep the game going and it’s like, you know, yeah you just need to pay more attention and You know, at the same time, also remind people that it is a more social format and that people should have a chance to play their spells. but it’s the same as diffusing a two-player conflict, but in this case, you know, there’s not anything really on the line or at least there shouldn’t be most

1:12:12 pm – Daniel Lee:
Not much at least.

1:12:14 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, and honestly, like, if, if there’s incentives for winning for a commander game, in any sort of even a pickup capacity, it’s not great. Usually they just give everyone some tickets and it’s like, you know, you can do what you want with these sort of things. Um, but yeah, but yeah, just it’s a social format try and keep the game, you know, running in a friendly social thing because you know, no one has to be there. No one’s trying to get to the pro tour or You know, win $5,000 or whatever, right? Like you’re there to have fun and play some cards. So

1:12:51 pm – Daniel Lee:
I’m remembering back to, I believe this is a Grand Prix, Phoenix a couple of or sorry, not Phoenix Pittsburgh. A few years ago, I was, I was given I was put in charge of a La Commander side event. It wasn’t sanctioned. It was just a It’s a player list event. So they just gave me a list of players. And so they wanted me, wanted me to figure out some way to make it two round event, where your results in the first round effect that something like Swiss adjacent almost, but with four person pods of beard, I remember

1:13:18 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:13:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
I had the idea of each pod was going to have a winner, right? The last person remember, I had the idea of each pod was going to have a winner, right? The last person standing as usual,

1:13:25 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:13:26 pm – Daniel Lee:
then I instructed them all amongst yourselves vote on who you think got second place and I let the pods figure out what parameters they wanted to suffer that but like pick someone that got second place whether it was the person that took out the player that stopped the player that ended up winning or something like that, like there’s someone you can usually come to some kind of an agreement on. Okay, this person like yeah.

1:13:50 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:13:52 pm – Daniel Lee:
It was in one but someone else got it and I really there were near zero issues. I expected at least a couple but there were no issues whatsoever. Any everyone had a this person got first this person got second and it was really cool to have that experience with commander players to where they’re just like, Yeah, no. We know that we’re just we’re making what, like, 20 tickets or something off this two booster packs worth. So like, let’s Let’s, let’s just have some fun with it. And, hey, yeah. No, this person absolutely got second place. That makes sense. And so, that was nice. So then I took all the first and second players potted them together and then that’s, that’s how it was,

1:14:26 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:14:27 pm – Daniel Lee:
Which was kind of a neat thing. Point of that story being that

1:14:29 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:14:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
The. The commander players in a lot of cases, vast majority of cases are probably going to kind of handle themselves to a degree. Would you agree with that?

1:14:42 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. For the most part, like honestly a lot of times I’ve had situations like that even just in more, you can just in smaller, sort of, you know, eight player, pickup events and stuff where I go and check on. You know, if I was working the on-demands and I go check on an event, it’s like, oh no, we just started the next round. Yeah, we’re good. We’re playing our semi-final now and it’s like, Oh, okay, cool. Do you know when you started? Okay, I’ll write that down. But yeah.

1:15:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah, I think I

1:15:16 pm – Charlotte Sable:
but I mean, the thing is

1:15:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
Think we ended up using 90 minute rounds for the the commander and I

1:15:21 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah. Yeah.

1:15:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
did but it was one of the

1:15:23 pm – Charlotte Sable:
90 minutes is a good time if you’re timing Commander because again games

1:15:26 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:15:27 pm – Charlotte Sable:
can take a long time and you know you don’t want

1:15:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
I think I don’t think anyone actually went to time, but I told them, if they do, go to time, active player will finish their turn. Each player will get one additional turn. I think is how

1:15:42 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, that’s based that’s basically fair.

1:15:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. That’s that’s

1:15:46 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Um, and then if you need to determine a winner, it can be highest life total or the people can vote on it or whatever else, right? Like, but yeah in general you know commander players just want to play commander, they don’t particularly care about Structures and formats. And you know there’s no tie breakers or

1:16:07 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:16:07 pm – Charlotte Sable:
You know top eight to think about or, you know, it’s it’s your play commander, you’re playing for fun, right? Like

1:16:14 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:16:15 pm – Charlotte Sable:
if someone really cares about winning in command, or they’re playing the wrong format,

1:16:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, absolutely. So it’s interesting. So so I think that makes a good segue into talking a little bit about Cedh. So this is Editive commander and

1:16:28 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:16:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
And so I’ve played a little bit of

1:16:31 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:16:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
this myself. I used to have a Cass Storm deck that

1:16:37 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Oh yeah.

1:16:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
the deck tried to storm out and kill the entire table as quickly as it possibly could. Sometimes it was able to do that pretty quickly. So what’s been your experience with Cedh? And how is that similar or different from Commander at large?

1:16:51 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Well, I mean, first of all, CDH is commander. It’s not a separate format. It’s not, you know, these people trying to ruin Commander, it’s a part of Commander, it’s just Commander played at you know, one one extreme of you know, power or, you know, basically like you know, the social contract and figuring out and rule zero and you know, figuring out what sort of game you want to play as a big struggle in commander, a lot of the

1:17:20 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:17:21 pm – Charlotte Sable:
A lot of the time Cedh is basically having that predefined and saying anything goes it’s legal. You play it. You try to win as basically as fast and efficiently as possible and you know no one’s gonna No one’s gonna poop you for doing that, right?

1:17:38 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:17:39 pm – Charlotte Sable:
And it has its own meta game and whatnot but it’s fine. Ah, CDH players tend to have very strong rules, knowledge or a lot. If they have rules questions they’ll honestly usually use quite technical language. When they ask their questions they literally just want to clarify a small point of the rules or whatever. Um And you know, honestly see each players are kind of a joy to judge because you go up to them and they know exactly what they want to ask. They have all the details organized and yeah, it’s basically, you know, It’s just, it’s just very precise magic because cdh, like a lot saying that comes up a lot is, you know, normal Edh is played on the battlefield cedh just played on the stack, right?

1:18:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
You have the truth? Yeah, it’s interesting.

1:18:32 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:18:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
So one of the so one of the big differences when you go from two-player to multiplayer is that the the order that priority passes,

1:18:40 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, exactly.

1:18:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
right? You turn order and the turn order You turn order and the turn order If You turn order and the turn order becomes really important. If I say try to play, Not faces Oracle because that’s just gonna win the game. But if I try to cast it doomsday or something, so I’m gonna try and then it’s it’s becomes this very

1:18:51 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:18:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
becomes this. Very interesting decision of like, Okay the person then the very next person has the first chance to becomes this. decision of like, Okay the person Okay the person then the very next person has the first chance to

1:19:00 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:19:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
to decide whether they want to jump on it and counter my doomsday or if they’re going to try and pressure. One of the other players to use their counter so that they can hold on to theirs.

1:19:13 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Right. Yeah, um yeah that actually leads to it’s not as common as some people would lead you to think. But um Basically there’s I’m forgetting the term people use for it. It’s basically, it’s something like it’s mana blackmailing, like you can, you know, because technically, if you take any game action, it You know, basically restarts the priority pass at you.

1:19:43 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:19:44 pm – Charlotte Sable:
So if I’m say, you know, if someone cast a spell and it’s past passed into me, I can tap a land for Mana and then there’s a whole other priority pass, right?

1:19:54 pm – Daniel Lee:
I think, okay.

1:19:56 pm – Charlotte Sable:
And so sometimes some players can will use that to be like, Well I’ll do something about this. You know, if you tap your lands first or whatever, right Manifolding? Yes, that’s the that’s the term for, yeah.

1:20:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
Credibly. Okay, interesting.

1:20:12 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah. Um, it’s not super, super common. But it happens occasionally and it’s just good to understand how that works. So yeah, I mean the priority rules are important in multiplayer. Um, Yeah, but like mana bullying is a thing that some people memorabilities. One of those things that people talk about a lot more than it actually happens. Right?

1:20:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
Fair enough. Yeah.

1:20:42 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:20:43 pm – Daniel Lee:
those like corner Casey things where it’s like we talked about it a lot like we talked about it a lot because

1:20:47 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:20:48 pm – Daniel Lee:
it’s interesting and it’s a neat it’s it’s something to be aware of but like it’s not really gonna

1:20:50 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:20:52 pm – Daniel Lee:
come up that much.

1:20:53 pm – Charlotte Sable:
No. But I mean if it happens you should know what it is because it’s one of those things that you know, especially if you’re less used to judging multiplayer magic. It’s like wait what? Oh okay.

1:21:04 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:21:05 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Please don’t do that. The answer to Manifolding is, Please don’t do that but I mean, technically, it’s legal. So

1:21:12 pm – Daniel Lee:
So um, you mentioned something earlier that I wanted us to take a quick second to define further folks that aren’t quite as familiar with sort of the, as you mentioned, the social contract kind of surrounding commander. You mentioned rules, zeros wondering if you could define that for us real quick,

1:21:28 pm – Charlotte Sable:
So, Rule 0 is not an actual rule. It’s basically part of the commander philosophy. In that when you’re sitting down to play commander with a group, especially a group of people that you haven’t played with before, or that you can play with all the before. It’s good to have a pregame conversation. And sort of just lay out what kind of game you expect to play, you know, what sort of experience you want to have just to make sure that everyone’s on the same page and is going to be able to play have a good compatible experience because commanders supposed to be fun, right?

1:22:07 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:22:08 pm – Charlotte Sable:
And sometimes that can include you know, maybe like you know oh my deck plays a few silver border cards. um, you know, this is what they are, this is what they do. None of them are really weird. Um, but on the other hand, you know, it it’s mostly just making sure that everyone’s comfortable and Happy with what’s gonna happen. And you know so that people aren’t gonna walk away from this game of commander feeling upset, right? Like

1:22:42 pm – Daniel Lee:
It’s a so commanders are really interesting format in in a number of ways. But in particularly relevant here, is that the one of the goals is for, even though only one person really gets to win the game, the goal is for everyone to enjoy the game regardless.

1:23:00 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Right. I mean

1:23:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
And we’ll see our conversations are

1:23:03 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:23:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
one tool that we have towards that,

1:23:04 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, exactly.

1:23:05 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:23:05 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Exactly. Exactly, like the first sentence in the Commander philosophy. Document is Commander is for fun, right? You know, it’s not it’s their specifically non-competitive, you know, non-tournament magic and You know, at that point you’re playing to enjoy yourself and if you’re not having fun then something’s wrong. Right.

1:23:31 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:23:32 pm – Charlotte Sable:
At At least At least in the bigger picture. Obviously, if you get, you know, you can get mana screwed. You can come up against something that you dislike, but, you know, You know in in the overall you want to be having a good time playing commander otherwise why are you playing commander, right?

1:23:48 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right? And some rules zero conversations that I’ve been a part of have definitely included things. Like How does everyone feel about uh land destruction? Like I have a deck that’s got that

1:23:59 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:24:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
does some amount of, like, mana denial and some people find that extremely frustrating and don’t want to play with that. And so I the credit to this person for being like, Hey, I have this deck. I don’t get to play that often because of what it does. Want like full disclosure. This is what I’m gonna try to do if I play this. If no, if someone is not okay with that, no problem. I have a different tech to play but if you if you find that an

1:24:20 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:24:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
interesting challenge to try and play around, then I can I can do that.

1:24:25 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:24:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
So like I really I really appreciated the disclosure of like, Hey, I understand that this playstyle is not something that a lot of people enjoy. And because fun kind of comes first here, I want to appreciated the disclosure of like, Hey, I understand that this playstyle is not something that a lot of people enjoy. And because fun kind of comes first here, I want to be

1:24:41 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:24:43 pm – Daniel Lee:
Um And then so one one to one rule zero conversation. I remembering I have an Erik Smithy’s slumbering aisle deck and I refer to it as just sea monsters tribal because it’s been sloviathan’s

1:24:54 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:24:56 pm – Daniel Lee:
octopuses and serpents and a bunch of ramp. And I try to play big sea monsters and try to turn them sideways. And so when, when people are like,

1:25:02 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:25:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
oh, someone, when I sit down with a group of folks that I’ve never played with before, I’ll say, hey, this is a rich methies. I have a bunch of sea monsters, I’m gonna ramp into them, I’m gonna drop them and I’m gonna turn them sideways. And then I I don’t need to get a specific as I have a monstrous onslaught that will probably kill three people at once things like

1:25:23 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, basically.

1:25:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
once things like that, I overall make stampede does the one I’m thinking. I’ve always get those two mixed up.

1:25:28 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:25:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
But yeah, like when you’ve got a 12-12 commander and you’re just like, cool. I’m gonna give everything plus 12, plus, 12 and trample. And yeah, so I’ve heard some, I’ve heard some folks on Twitter complain about Rule Zero conversations because they’re like, Oh, I don’t want to tell people how I’m gonna win, that’s no fun. And I’m like, okay, but you don’t have to tell them how you’re gonna win, but kind of give an idea what your decks about a little bit, right?

1:25:50 pm – Charlotte Sable:
yeah, I mean You know, you you want to you? I mean, one way you can think about it is like, make rule zero about selling people on wanting to play with you and against your deck, right? Like so you basically want to give, you know, the elevator pitch for your deck, right? You want to

1:26:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
That’s a good way of putting it. Yeah, for sure.

1:26:10 pm – Charlotte Sable:
yeah, like you want to give me you know one short paragraph like For example, like one of my favorite decks, I have an electric who smiles at Death Deck and it’s basically just a weird graveyard toolbox. Treasure token self-mill reanimator but a little bit of everything with a mild artifact focus and Sometimes it can take long terms in the late game, but if I do I usually win on that turn.

1:26:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
Fair enough.

1:26:42 pm – Charlotte Sable:
generally how I would explain that, you know, it’s not. And again, it’s not like that deck, the deck is, Like that’s generally how I would explain that, explain that, you know, it’s not. And again, it’s not like that deck. The deck is, you know, has gone through, you know, a bunch of iterations. Like that’s generally how I would explain that, you know, it’s not. And again, it’s not like that deck, the deck is, you know, has gone through, you know, a bunch of iterations. It’s very difficult to define But, you know, in general, you want to say like, Okay, you know, like a lot of things. I mean, It also depends on what people care about, a lot of things that people will care about sometimes again, if you’re at a command fest, you know, especially if people are playing with people outside of their players for the first time judges maybe having to help, you know, encourage or facilitate these rules zero discussions and so yeah just like, you know, A lot of things people tend to care about will be things like, you know, mass land destruction or you know, two card combos or you know, critical term is the thing people talk about. But again, a lot of I have no idea what my critical turns for a lot of my ex are right like

1:27:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. For for Rick Smith either like it’s can be like turn five or six, but I kind of depends on what ram.

1:27:41 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:27:42 pm – Daniel Lee:
I get initially like sometimes I get initially like sometimes it’s

1:27:43 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:27:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
sometimes it’s nine or ten, I don’t know.

1:27:47 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, all right, Yeah. I mean like I also have an erect I mean like I also have an erect smithy’s deck and I mean it’s basically one Yeah. All right yeah. I mean like I also have an erect smithy’s deck and I mean it’s basically one shot tribal so like yeah I can kill one person on turn four or five, probably. But it might take me until turn eight to, you know, kill everyone. Yeah. All right. I mean like I also have an erect I mean like I also have a direct basically one shot tribal so like basically one shot tribal so like four or five, probably. four or five, probably. to, you know, kill everyone.

1:28:02 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:28:03 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:28:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
um, so one of the things that so So that’s really yeah, Rule Zero conversations are really useful. You also mentioned how some folks might have like silver bordered cards, or maybe even a card that’s formally banned in Commander, but this player may not use it in a particularly egregious way. Let’s say they can.

1:28:28 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:28:28 pm – Daniel Lee:
So So, like things like that could also be part or should also be part of a

1:28:32 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:28:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
real conversation, right?

1:28:34 pm – Charlotte Sable:
right, yes, but just remember, um, If you’re playing something that’s technically outside, what’s legal in the format? It’s in, it’s imperative on you to bring that up. It’s not like

1:28:46 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yes. Probably.

1:28:47 pm – Charlotte Sable:
oh, well, we, you know, you should have asked no, like if you’re playing Silver Border, if you’re playing band cards, You know, if If you have, you know, like I mean I someone at my lgs has a deck that tries to win with by like bringing extra copies of he-drawn alignment into the game, right?

1:29:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
Interesting. Okay.

1:29:11 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Which is like, it’s a really bad, you win the game enchantment, but you need to have one play. One in hand, one graveyard and one in. Exile.

1:29:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right now.

1:29:18 pm – Charlotte Sable:
It’s just technically doesn’t work with Commander. But, you know, They take, they just have one in their deck and they have like, you know, lots of wish board type cards and they bring the rest in and that’s technically, not legal. But, you know, I mean, it’s fun and it’s stupid, and it’s not a strong debt, right? So, yeah.

1:29:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. It’s not like allowing. This is now going to mean that your game is over on turn one or anything

1:29:39 pm – Charlotte Sable:
No, exactly.

1:29:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
like that. Yeah, it’s wacky.

1:29:41 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Exactly. Um

1:29:43 pm – Daniel Lee:
Just so some of the, some of the

1:29:44 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:29:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
better commander games are ones were wacky things happen, right?

1:29:47 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Right. But yeah, Rule zero is not just to be clear. All zero is not a way to bully people, into letting you play a technically illegal deck. If anyone, if people are cool with it then, find a different table or play a different deck. Like

1:30:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, yeah, I would also I would also say it’s probably good. It may not be Yeah. Yeah, I would also I would also say it’s probably good. It may not be made.

1:30:07 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:30:08 pm – Daniel Lee:
I don’t, I don’t know it’s good but probably not required depending on how you’re talking about it. But like if someone’s coming and I know this is how I’d approach. Let me put it that way if I was approaching a table and I had like, let’s say three silver boarded cards, my deck because there’s certain

1:30:22 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:30:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
contraption thing I want to do, I don’t know. And I bring up to the table and they say, Yeah. And we’ve kind of don’t want to do with silver board of nonsense today. I’m like that’s cool. Let me swap them out for three other cards, something like that. So I don’t have to like hate to hold

1:30:33 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, exactly.

1:30:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
back. I can just not play the silver border nonsense, so

1:30:38 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like have a plan for it.

1:30:41 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:30:41 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Um I would like to touch though

1:30:45 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:30:45 pm – Charlotte Sable:
That That is a little a little That is a little, a little stickier than a lot of these other things that

1:30:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
Absolutely good.

1:30:50 pm – Charlotte Sable:
would be pro. That would be proxies or, you know, That would be proxies or, you know, clay than a lot of these other things that would be pro. That would be proxies or, you know, clay test cards or however, you wanted to find them cards that are not official magic cards, right?

1:30:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Okay, go for it.

1:31:00 pm – Charlotte Sable:
I mean Commander is an eternal format, there are some very expensive cards that are legal in the format.

1:31:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh boy. Yes, there are

1:31:06 pm – Charlotte Sable:
and even just, you know, there are cards that are a few years old that are, you know, over You know, that are pushing a hundred dollars, right? Like You know cough. Cough. Oxide extortionist cough cough.

1:31:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
yeah, I was here I was thinking like moat like I’d probably like to fairies mode Ed, but if that’s if I’m

1:31:22 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:31:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
not in blue, then modes a pretty good

1:31:25 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:31:26 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:31:28 pm – Charlotte Sable:
but yeah, these are, I mean, obviously at your kitchen table at, you know, your local meetup Um, you know, you, I I personally am fine with people playing the game, right? That’s me. but when you’re playing at an lgs or at a command fest, You’re playing at a committed fest area. Specifically is a Wizards, organized. Wizard, like, or Wizard sponsored event. Anyway, it’s an official magic event.

1:32:02 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:32:04 pm – Charlotte Sable:
So in that case, you can’t these cards cannot be allowed under any circumstance.

1:32:09 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:32:11 pm – Charlotte Sable:
um, So yeah. So we have to basically take a hard line on that and that could be a difficult conversation to have with people. but, The thing is, you know, the point, the fact of the matter is we’re still playing magic the gathering and that means you need to use official magic, the gathering cards when you’re at spaces that are under the age of the coast, right?

1:32:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep. And I’ve got a, I’ve actually recently published an article about this on Judge Academy. I’m going to pop the link into the chat here. Talking about a little bit of this terminology play test cards versus proxies versus counterfeits and

1:32:52 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah. Yeah.

1:32:54 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:32:54 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Proxy is Is that is the common parlance though, so?

1:32:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right, exactly. Exactly. refers to them refers to them Right, exactly. So the way that the way that wizards refers to them is, they’ll talk about play test cards. And Right. So the way that the way that wizards refers to them is, they’ll talk about play test cards. And Right. Exactly. refers to them is, they’ll talk about refers to them is, they’ll talk about And And Right, exactly. Exactly. So the way that the way that wizards refers to them is, they’ll talk about play test cards. And so I have an example here of a MOX

1:33:09 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah. Nice.

1:33:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
pretty clear. This is not a real magic card. This was a piece of artwork that I

1:33:14 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:33:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
commissioned from an artist but I use that in in my vintage deck when I am playing against other folks or And they know full well, that happened because I can’t afford a mock sapphire turns out. However, if I were to go to a

1:33:28 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:33:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
vintage, sanction magic tournament, I can’t play that card. That’s not a legal magic card.

1:33:35 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:33:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
It’s that’s the end of the sentence, really.

1:33:38 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Right? And the thing is though, even even if

1:33:40 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:33:41 pm – Charlotte Sable:
even though Commander isn’t necessarily sanctioned, even though it’s not, you know, a tournament or being played under any sort of, you know, or I mean, it’s not being played as a tournament as an official event but you’re still in a wizards of the coast space.

1:33:59 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:33:59 pm – Charlotte Sable:
So, and I mean so yeah I I have to imagine at least that the tournament organizers for the command fests are going to be very strict on this policy. Um,

1:34:12 pm – Daniel Lee:
I would imagine. So

1:34:13 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:34:14 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:34:14 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Um, same Um same goes, if you’re playing at your LDS, if you’re lgs is a wpn store, Then it can be problematic to play these cards there as well. As I mean, if you’re just playing a pickup game with people that can be okay, I would obviously talk to the store staff. First. Beforehand, but if you’re playing and say Friday Night Magic or something, then it’s absolutely not, okay? Because you are playing in an organized event even if it’s not a tournament. Right.

1:34:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. So

1:34:46 pm – Charlotte Sable:
And, you know if wizards I mean wizards is not, you know, Super Petty, but if you know, wizards gets got a bunch of reports about oh, people are playing a bunch of fake cards over at this shop and You know, that could lead a stop to losing its, you know, sanctioning abilities losing its ability to run pre-releases or magic events at all. You know, or might even impact its

1:35:09 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:35:09 pm – Charlotte Sable:
ability to order magic product, you know? So you need to be careful with this, right?

1:35:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
Ah and so in the so I dropped the link to the article that I wrote a month or so ago. And that article also contains a link to Wizard’s current policy regarding play test cards and proxies and counterfeits and whatnot. And I received recent assurances that

1:35:32 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:35:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
that is still that is still wizards policy on the matter.

1:35:35 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Okay. So can you remind us? So is it basically what I said

1:35:39 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:35:39 pm – Charlotte Sable:
So is it basically what I said or is there something more?

1:35:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Basically, what you said let me I can also pull it up here. But yeah. So our stated policy, a specifically applies to sanctioned events card used must be authentic magic cards. The only exceptions, if a card has become damaged and this is covered in the in the magic tournament rules. So that’s, that’s not really what we’re talking about here.

1:36:02 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:36:05 pm – Daniel Lee:
Stances stands on counterfeits is very clear. Wizards is committed to vigorously protecting the magic community from counterfeiters and counterfeits are Horrible. And really, like there such a

1:36:14 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:36:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
headache and we headache and we I not blame wizards

1:36:18 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:36:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
at all at all for taking those.

1:36:21 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Now obviously, counterfeits are never okay. Even even if someone just has even just in a pickup game of commander, I’m usually like not if something could be mistaken for a real magic card, You know like um, yeah, no.

1:36:39 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:36:39 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:36:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
So it was so in particular, when I, when I got my, when I got these ones made for my for my like, even the Max

1:36:45 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:36:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Ruby, even though it looks like a magic frame, nobody has mistaking that for a real card, right?

1:36:49 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Now, exactly.

1:36:51 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:36:51 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, and no one’s gonna mistake a paper print out, you know, slipped into a sleeve as a real magic card but

1:36:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Exactly. But when you start, when you start using a high RES printer, printing directly onto a washed magic card

1:37:04 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, when you’re when, when you’re

1:37:04 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:37:06 pm – Charlotte Sable:
buying from, you know,

1:37:06 pm – Daniel Lee:
No, no.

1:37:10 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, these things are not cool and what’s a thorny area? And, you know, let me as, as a member of the Commander Advisory Group. I mean, I want people to be able to play magic play Commander have fun. I, you know, I don’t think that money should be a huge issue but that of course, is when you’re playing for yourself, when you go into a wizards, A sanctioned space, it changes obviously. And that’s, I didn’t want this to

1:37:40 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:37:42 pm – Charlotte Sable:
become a huge long spiel about this,

1:37:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh no.

1:37:45 pm – Charlotte Sable:
but, yeah.

1:37:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
So one last thing on this and then I can then we can rotate back to something else but there is a boldline Here wizards of the coast has no desire to police play. Test cards made for personal non-commercial use even if that usage takes place in a store. so so as long as it’s not Asinction

1:37:58 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:38:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
tournament wizards, mostly is mostly

1:38:01 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:38:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
doesn’t mind. I went ahead and dropped that. Link into the chat as well. So, let’s go ahead and focus back on

1:38:09 pm – Charlotte Sable:
That’s good.

1:38:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
rules because that is that’s what you’re the expert on here.

1:38:14 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:38:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
Let’s go ahead and go over just for for completeness sake. Is there a useful process that are like a checklist that one could go through when a player leaves the game? So that we make sure we hand all the

1:38:24 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:38:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
permanents and what not correctly.

1:38:27 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, so the relevant rule in the confidence of rules is Rule 800.4.

1:38:32 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:38:33 pm – Charlotte Sable:
So Section 800 is your multiplayer rules. Which handles any game that involves more than two players.

1:38:42 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:38:42 pm – Charlotte Sable:
But But 800.4 is the one that involves players leaving the game, I might as well just read it since I have it up here. so, All summarize it anyway. So when a player leaves the game all objects own by that player, leave the game and effects which give a plate that player control of any objects or players and so first of all, Uh almost I die. All my stuff leaves the game. Any cards that came from my deck are gone any Yeah. Um,

1:39:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
An easy way to remember that is if a player is leaving the game, they should be able to leave the game. So none of their stuff is gonna stick

1:39:24 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:39:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
around Underplayer control

1:39:26 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, any any tokens I created or that were created under my control. Go away. um, yeah. All my stuff goes away.

1:39:37 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:39:38 pm – Charlotte Sable:
um, Then. Okay. So then continuing then obviously, if I have Any objects on the stack such as triggers or copies of spells those, go away those they cease to exist. Then if I still control permanent any any objects ie permanent zone by other players. Those objects are excelled so to clarify. um, first of all, My stuff goes away, like my cards, I don’t go away, anything giving me control of something temporarily. And so if I have Say cast insurrection, right?

1:40:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay. Yeah.

1:40:22 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Which is gain control of all creatures. They have haste untap them yet.

1:40:24 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:40:27 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Um, but I was at three life and someone lightning bolts me after resolves. The control effect on all those creatures, and they go back to the player who previously had control of them, well, or okay. Yes, in judge speak to the most recent relevant control changing effect.

1:40:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, fair enough.

1:40:46 pm – Charlotte Sable:
and barring that their default owner or their, the player who’s control, they enter the battlefield under, Um,

1:40:51 pm – Daniel Lee:
Let’s go for it. So for example, just just to kind of clarify what we’re talking about if player so if if I’m

1:40:56 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:40:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
So if if I’m a B c D and player, C

1:41:00 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:41:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
has, what’s that fairy? That takes something a dream sower. Um, storage temptation. There we go, sports temptations. One of these creatures. Say a bear cub and I insurrection. So I gain control all these creatures and then someone lightning bolts me and I die. So then the sower and the bear. Cub should go back to C, correct?

1:41:22 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:41:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
okay, that that

1:41:24 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, um, yeah. Um, so yeah, so control effects, although, of course, um, when you’re when permanent you own, leave the game, any auras or anything, like sort of temptation will leave the game, right? And then that control effect will end anyway, right?

1:41:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
So temptations a creature though.

1:41:44 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:41:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. So

1:41:45 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Okay. Sorry. Who’s serve them to sorry, I miss her. Who’s

1:41:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
See cast slower to take it from deep

1:41:50 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:41:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
to take a bear, cub from D and then I took them with insurrection.

1:41:53 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:41:54 pm – Daniel Lee:
I left.

1:41:55 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Oh, oh yeah.

1:41:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
So see, they’re so So see, they’re so as well as the

1:41:55 pm – Charlotte Sable:
So So then it goes back to see.

1:41:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
Bear cup.

1:41:57 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, yeah.

1:41:57 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:41:58 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, right.

1:41:59 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:42:00 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah. Um. So then, okay. So that. Yeah. So first, my stuff goes away. Second anything I control that is under a control changing effect. That effect ends.

1:42:12 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, so we’ll go back, most recent

1:42:13 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:42:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
So we’ll go back, most recent control changing effect.

1:42:15 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Next anything that I still control including objects on the stack not represented by cards. Cease to exist. And then if I still control anything, this is usually cards that owned by other players that have entered, the battlefield under my control directly. So I zombified someone’s creature

1:42:36 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:42:37 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:42:37 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:42:38 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Finally, You’re graveyard, I can never remember.

1:42:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
So yeah, reanimated from someone else’s graveyard. I was thinking card that I cast off of Gaunty. Lord of Luxury.

1:42:45 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, sure. That’s a good one as well.

1:42:47 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:42:47 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah. Yeah, those cards. Since you They entered the battlefield under my control I am their default controller. Um, so those cards, don’t go back to their owners. Those cards are just exiled

1:43:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, that’s that’s one of the weird That’s that’s one of the weird ones

1:43:03 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:43:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
that I don’t think a lot people would know about.

1:43:06 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Tldr is if someone controlled it before you did, it goes back.

1:43:09 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:43:11 pm – Charlotte Sable:
If it no one controlled it before you did, it’s exiles.

1:43:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
so, here’s a fun on what if I’m the monarch

1:43:18 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Okay, um, yeah, so that’s let me just double see double check if there’s anything else in this. Um

1:43:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
Coming after.

1:43:26 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, those are actually right. And then finally, if the player who left the game had priority at the time, they left priority passes to the next player.

1:43:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay, that’s one of those, right? I would certainly hope it worked that way because no other way would make sense.

1:43:39 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yet. Um, also just to know when a player leaves the game. The rest of the turn proceeds, as normal. Except with out it. Well, if it’s like, say my turn, right? If I cast insurrection and oh before before I can declare attackers you bolt me and I die, right? The rest of the term proceeds as normal except there’s no active player. So priority goes, you know, Starts with the person that would

1:44:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
I, Right.

1:44:04 pm – Charlotte Sable:
take their turn after me, right?

1:44:05 pm – Daniel Lee:
Next. Turn order. Yeah.

1:44:07 pm – Charlotte Sable:
So, b, c, d, b, c d, of course, since

1:44:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, that

1:44:11 pm – Charlotte Sable:
you know, You skip the relevant steps when there’s no attackers and whatever. Um,

1:44:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, so you would never see a declare Walker step in such a turn,

1:44:18 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:44:19 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:44:19 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:44:20 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:44:22 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yes. So let’s see is the monarch thing in there. No, let me find the rule for monarch then.

1:44:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah this is one of those where I I like because someone asked it in the chat earlier and I was just like, I I thought I knew I feel like man.

1:44:38 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah. Yeah.

1:44:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
because there’s

1:44:40 pm – Charlotte Sable:
So, the rule for monarch is 720.4. So if the monarch leaves the game,

1:44:44 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:44:46 pm – Charlotte Sable:
the active player becomes the monarch as the same time that player leaves the game. if the active player is leaving the

1:44:51 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:44:52 pm – Charlotte Sable:
game, or there is no active player, the next player in turn order becomes the monarch.

1:44:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
Really. Oh, that’s interesting.

1:44:58 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:44:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
That’s not. So I would have either guessed it. Just off of my intuition. I would either guessed that. Okay, then there is no monarch right now and then like some other effect could cause her to be monarch.

1:45:08 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:45:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
But that doesn’t really jive with the, the sort of kind of like how we

1:45:12 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:45:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
do we track day and night. Now, once there, once something cares, we care for the rest of the game. So kind of like what’s there’s a monarch, there’s a monarch for the rest of the game.

1:45:22 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:45:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
But yeah, no. Just I my intuition if it wasn’t that would have then been it goes back to whoever the last player, the monarch was but that might be hard to

1:45:30 pm – Charlotte Sable:
No, no, no.

1:45:31 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:45:33 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:45:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
Interesting really interesting. All right, cool.

1:45:34 pm – Charlotte Sable:
and then also if no player still in the game can become them on Ark, then there’s no monarch

1:45:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, okay.

1:45:41 pm – Charlotte Sable:
although, I believe

1:45:41 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:45:43 pm – Charlotte Sable:
that is only for

1:45:51 pm – Daniel Lee:
It’s not.

1:45:52 pm – Charlotte Sable:
the battlefield target opponent becomes the monarch. You can’t become the monarch this turn.

1:45:56 pm – Daniel Lee:
I see, so if every other player controls a controls that creature,

1:45:59 pm – Charlotte Sable:
yeah, so like let’s say let’s say

1:45:59 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:46:02 pm – Charlotte Sable:
just Stupidly. Um, You know someone has a Jared Carthallian and I cast Oh what’s that card? That exiles a thing and gives everyone else a copy.

1:46:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
I know the cards are thinking of, but I do not remember its name. I’ve got my head.

1:46:17 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Fracture. Sure. Someone in church.

1:46:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
Fractured identity, something like that.

1:46:21 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, fractured identity.

1:46:21 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:46:23 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah. So if um, yeah.

1:46:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
There it is.

1:46:26 pm – Charlotte Sable:
So if I have a Jared Carthallian and I fractured identity it, I will end up as the monarch because no one else can become the monarch. And then, if I die, Well, no one else in the game can become the monarch. So there’s no monarch and then it’ll

1:46:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
oh, And I see how this is.

1:46:46 pm – Charlotte Sable:
but I mean it’s

1:46:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
Interesting, The wording on fractured identity because the other players are creating the tokens.

1:46:52 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:46:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
They will still keep the tokens even if you leave the game. That’s really interesting.

1:46:56 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah. Yeah, token ownership was completely revamped trying to remember when it was, it was several years ago now but It used to be that tokens created that were used to depend on who the controller of the card that created the tokens was. But now it’s just whoever actually made them like whoever whoever’s control they entered under now is the owner But yeah.

1:47:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right on.

1:47:22 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Anyway, the history

1:47:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
All right.

1:47:24 pm – Charlotte Sable:
history of rules because there’s a whole mess of stuff in that. Um but yeah like that but yes. So that other relevant things for that. Yeah. There’s the the monarch What else is there? Let me check the other leaving the game stuff. Obviously.

1:47:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
I’ll say someone in chat mentioned when someone gains control of a spell on the stack does that?

1:47:51 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:47:52 pm – Daniel Lee:
So does that affect the so like because I know you can gain control a permanent spells these days. So if so if sea cast a bear cub I take control of it. So it enters under my control does that into the first category of it

1:48:05 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:48:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
go back to C or the second category of it, you get exiled.

1:48:11 pm – Charlotte Sable:
It should get exiled because it entered the battlefield, right?

1:48:13 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:48:14 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Default controller is defined as Yeah. Yeah, default controller is the player under who is control, it entered the battlefield.

1:48:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
All right.

1:48:25 pm – Charlotte Sable:
So all so interestingly. Let’s if there can be weird situations where someone leaving the game can have effects later on. so for example, if if I yeah if I

1:48:42 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:48:46 pm – Charlotte Sable:
reanimate creature From your graveyard. And then later on. Another player takes it with sort of temptation.

1:48:58 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:48:58 pm – Charlotte Sable:
And then I die it stays in play because I don’t control it.

1:49:02 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:49:03 pm – Charlotte Sable:
But then if this sort of temptation dies, it should go back to me as the default controller but I’m no longer in the game. So it’s then exiled

1:49:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh interesting. Um, so someone in the chat is

1:49:13 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:49:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
pointing out and I think I think I understand what they’re getting at if I were to pointing out and I think, I think I understand what they’re getting at if I were to going back to the gaining control of the bear, cub on the stack, if I gain control of it on the

1:49:22 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:49:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
stack, and I leave the game before it resolves.

1:49:27 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Right. Well, then that’s a control changing effect and that ends before.

1:49:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay. so then the Bear Cup goes back to

1:49:31 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah. Yeah.

1:49:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
seize control and then we’ll result put it. Okay. Right on. Thanks for the thanks for the clarifications there, or I appreciate the the interaction there.

1:49:43 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah. yeah, there’s a bunch of other weirdness with the player leaving the thing, like, If somehow a rule requires a player who left the game to make a choice, The next player in turn order makes that choice. I literally can’t think of an example for that, but I’m sure it can come up.

1:50:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, that’s that’s a weird one.

1:50:09 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Oh, another thing that’s this one is actually more important though.

1:50:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, sure.

1:50:13 pm – Charlotte Sable:
um, if a player leaves the game, any effects that Were scheduled to last until their next turn. Will end basically when it would become would have become their turn. Right.

1:50:26 pm – Daniel Lee:
okay, so we’re talking like, if I have detained a creature until my next turn, Okay. have detained a creature until my next turn,

1:50:30 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:50:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
turn, then it will need to take the

1:50:31 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah. Or something like that? Yeah, yeah.

1:50:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
entire turn cycle, okay?

1:50:37 pm – Charlotte Sable:
See, let me find. Yeah, or yeah, or just in general, if I say Behold the unspeakable. It’s chapter one is creatures. I don’t control. Get minus 2 minus L until my next turn, right?

1:50:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay. Yeah.

1:50:59 pm – Charlotte Sable:
If I’m player A I cast that. And then I die on say Player. Sees turn. The effect will still last through Player C and Player D’s turn, but then it won’t, then it will have ended by the time Player. B’s turn begins.

1:51:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay. Um, so bel-ray is a citing 110.2 B here if that causes a player to gain permanence bell. permanence bell. So the back to the bear cub scenario. The first player controls, the permanent that spell becomes, but the permanence controller by default is the player who put that spell on the Okay, so Bel-ray is a citing 110.2 B here if that causes a player to gain control of another player’s, permanence bell. So the back to the bear cub scenario. The first player controls, the permanent that spell becomes, but the permanence controller by default is the player who put that spell on the stack.

1:51:32 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Ah, okay, that’s interesting.

1:51:34 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:51:34 pm – Charlotte Sable:
I actually was not aware of that good to know.

1:51:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
Doesn’t come up a whole lot. So I think Hey I think I understand

1:51:38 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:51:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
but really appreciate clarification

1:51:41 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:51:42 pm – Daniel Lee:
there. so that is that is interesting. So let’s go ahead and we can correct So let’s go ahead and we can correct So if I do, steal your bear cub on So if I do, steal your bear, cub on there. So let’s go ahead and we can correct So let’s go ahead and we can correct So if I do, steal your bear, cub on the stack and then I actually should go back to your control because it does happen. Default control. That isn’t me. All right. That is no appreciate the appreciate the country in there.

1:51:58 pm – Charlotte Sable:
That’s cool. Yeah yeah.

1:51:59 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:52:00 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Obviously magic was originally designed as a two-player game so leading, the game has some weirdness to it.

1:52:06 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, not a lot of times you run into just Oh and I want all of my opponents have left the game. I win the game.

1:52:13 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:52:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, so so there’s a few other things that I think are probably worth mentioning, but they’re pretty quick hits. Like I was thinking just old rules that haven’t that don’t come up a lot. Not even in legacy play. But like, World enchantments. For example, you wanna talk about how

1:52:27 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:52:28 pm – Daniel Lee:
how those work.

1:52:30 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Sure. So world is a super type that appears on permanent specifically enchantments from legends. There can only ever be one world permanent in play at a time. If the new permanent with the world’s super type enters the battlefield, any previous. One of the type is sacrifice to believe, let me do a search and find the exact wording because it does.

1:52:56 pm – Daniel Lee:
It might be put into a graveyard. They tend not.

1:52:58 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Probably put into graveyard because

1:52:58 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:52:59 pm – Charlotte Sable:
it can’t be prevented.

1:53:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
It’s a it’s it’s one of the reasons that it’s I feel like it’s worth bringing up. It’s just because it’s the new one,

1:53:05 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:53:06 pm – Daniel Lee:
replaces, the old one which is not.

1:53:08 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:53:08 pm – Daniel Lee:
So you can’t really draw any

1:53:10 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:53:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
like legends or anything like that.

1:53:10 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yes. Okay, yes, yeah, right. Okay, yes. Yeah, right. It’s a state-based action. So if two or more permanents has a super type Okay, yes. It’s a state-based action so if two or more permanents has a super type world all, except the one that has the world super type for the shortest amount of time are putting their own as graveyards in the event of a tie. For the shortest amount of times all are put into their owners graveyards.

1:53:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, so if you animate your concordant crossroads and mirror weave, it that’s a board wipe.

1:53:30 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah. Yeah. Well no because everything will have different timestamps.

1:53:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, but they but it says has had the

1:53:39 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Unless you in let.

1:53:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
World Sub super type for the shortest amount of time.

1:53:44 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Oh, that’s true.

1:53:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
They’re all gaming it at the same time, right?

1:53:46 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, that’s true. That is true. All right.

1:53:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, that’s a mirror weave is always a fun way to reduce.

1:53:53 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, but yeah, this is called the

1:53:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
yeah, so like

1:53:56 pm – Charlotte Sable:
world rule.

1:53:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
There you go. The, so the most common ones I remember seeing are concordant crossroads because that’s one green, all creatures of east.

1:54:04 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:54:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
And that’s, that’s a neat.

1:54:06 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Tombstone, stairwells and other common one.

1:54:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
And nether void. I think was the other one I was. Yeah.

1:54:10 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, yeah, let’s see ones that you would actually see. Chaosphere, you see sometimes that basically inverts how flying works.

1:54:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh fun.

1:54:21 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Non-flying creatures are basically flying creatures of flying creatures are non-flying creatures, although tech.

1:54:25 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:54:26 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Um, everything, haste, other ones that you might see Hall of Gemstone is like a control card. coskin Falls is basically a black ghostly prison, but somehow a world enchantment. um and then Tombstone stairwell the abyss and other void or the other

1:54:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh yeah, that’s another one.

1:54:49 pm – Charlotte Sable:
ones you might see. Yeah.

1:54:54 pm – Daniel Lee:
And Erica provided lands edge as well as another one that pops up here and there.

1:54:57 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Oh, yeah, yeah, man’s edge. Um,

1:55:00 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:55:00 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Um, and with the new secret lair with the Concurrent crossword. That’s actually the first time that a World enchantment will be printed physically with world enchantment on it.

1:55:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, interesting. Oh, it’s world like

1:55:14 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Since none of them have, none of them had actually been printed. Since it changed from enchant world, to world enchantment.

1:55:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
Air. Very interesting. That’s um, yeah, that’s

1:55:24 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:55:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
That’s that’s That’s that’s a That’s a fun bit of trivia. I would not have known otherwise.

1:55:28 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:55:28 pm – Daniel Lee:
So we’ve we’ve got only a few minutes left here as there. Anything else at any, any big things you wanted to hit before we before at a time here.

1:55:36 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Ah, just if you’re ever taking a call, especially like a rules question or whatever, just remember, you have four players in the game, respect their time. Also be sure to consider what’s on, you know, the battlefield from other players that aren’t necessarily involved in the call because it could affect the answer. Um, and just, you know, you’re judging a fun. You’re there to judge a fun format. So try to have fun yourself, right? No one wants, you know, super serious rules bought when they’re trying to just play fun commander times, right? Like,

1:56:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
It I can I can imagine. Well I’ve also had this experience where it can it can sometimes a complicated Commander Rules question especially a live call can start to feel like Judge Tower a little bit. So remember that, you’re that we’re

1:56:24 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:56:26 pm – Daniel Lee:
we’re still in the Commander game. We’re meant to have on we’re not

1:56:27 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:56:28 pm – Daniel Lee:
trying to be like maximum rules lawyer here.

1:56:31 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Exactly, exactly. Exactly and again and try to I mean it’s just judging in general but also just try to try to sort of gear your You know, demeanor to how, you know, to basically the demeanor of the table, right? If obviously, if it’s a CDH table,

1:56:46 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:56:48 pm – Charlotte Sable:
then you probably want to try and be a little more exact use more precise language if it’s a bunch of

1:56:52 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:56:54 pm – Charlotte Sable:
If it’s a bunch of newer If it’s a bunch of newer players you want to you know be in the educator mode. You know I mean it’s judging in general but just you know very much more on the you know you want to lean to the community side of things more than the

1:57:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
Absolutely. And there was oh shoot there’s one more thing I wanted to mention there and I just completely lost it. Oh, Excuse me. Oh right. Yeah, something I wanted to mention when you mentioned that, you know, remember that there’s four players there. So that’s like, you’re you’re taking

1:57:26 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:57:27 pm – Daniel Lee:
up twice, effectively twice as many people’s time when you’re handling

1:57:30 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, exactly.

1:57:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
rule situation. That’s not to say, don’t take your time with it and make sure correct.

1:57:33 pm – Charlotte Sable:
No, of course, of course.

1:57:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
but also a be mindful of it.

1:57:36 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:57:37 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:57:37 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, hold it in the balance, basically.

1:57:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
But you know, I also want to mention that you are dealing with four players worth of board states. And so just as A and B are having an

1:57:45 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:57:48 pm – Daniel Lee:
interaction and the questions between those two cards. see might have a rest in peace on the battlefield, so like there’s other, they’re gonna be other cards on the

1:57:53 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:57:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
battlefield that will that could very easily affect.

1:57:59 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Right. Um and like, like in tournaments

1:58:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
Going up.

1:58:03 pm – Charlotte Sable:
often when you have a complicated rules interaction or you have something where it’s like, you’re not sure if they quite understood stick around, Watch it play out. Make sure everyone’s cool. It’s happening. Because even if you’ve talked to player even just with a more complicated rules interaction. If you’ve talked to Players A and B If C and D were, you know, say doing a trade or whatever. They might have questions. Once the interaction is actually in play rather than you know, Just hypothetical or whatever, right?

1:58:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. And and shoot if

1:58:36 pm – Charlotte Sable:
So stick around provide good customer service, you know.

1:58:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
And true. And even if you do happen to miss something like there’s a rest in peace or someone cast a spell that’s now in a graveyard, but has a continuous effect. That’s, I’m battlefield.

1:58:48 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:58:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
And you like Explain your ruling to everyone and they go. Okay. But I cast a meat hook massacre earlier. Doesn’t that change anything? And then you’re like, Yeah, it does. So being able to like kind of touch bases with all the players is gonna

1:59:01 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:59:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
is gonna save you from potentially a

1:59:05 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:59:06 pm – Daniel Lee:
couple of times there, too.

1:59:07 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:59:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
All right, so we’re gonna go ahead and wrap this up. Thank you so much, Charlotte, right? Yes.

1:59:13 pm – Charlotte Sable:
You are welcome.

1:59:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
having you here today. I hope

1:59:17 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, it’s been great to be here.

1:59:17 pm – Daniel Lee:
I hope it’s, I hope Hey, I hope it’s been a great experience for you as well. Thank everyone in the chat for your

1:59:21 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:59:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
for interacting and talking with us about commander rule stuff. There’s a lot going on here, but I hope you all have fun at your command fest events and I hope you’re able to get out there and play some commander judge, some commander and just really

1:59:37 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:59:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
enjoy magic and one of its finest and one of the finest forms. So it’s thanks very much, all and

1:59:44 pm – Charlotte Sable:

1:59:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
have a great week.

1:59:46 pm – Charlotte Sable:
Yeah, bye.