Transcript – May First Week: Policy Lessons

1:00:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
Welcome back to Judge Academy’s. First week series for the month of May today, I have with me, David Lyford Tilley from the United Kingdom who’s here to talk to us about some recent experiences that he and I both had when it comes to paper tournaments recently. There’s been a big ramp up in terms of the return of tournaments in paper as opposed to over digital platforms like magic arena. And some of us that have been judging since, before pandemic restrictions, you know, have where a little bit rusty at this, because it’s been a little while since we’ve had to flex these muscles. And also, some folks are brand new judges that have never actually been able to work a paper tournament before. So I felt like it was really great. A great time for us to visit. What is that paper tournament actually like, and what is it like nowadays, too. So David go ahead and introduce yourself. Give us a little To your history and a little bit about yourself.

1:01:50 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
So as mentioned when David Leibatelli, I’m a Level 3 judge from Northampton in the UK. I’ve been judging since about 2007 and a level three since about. Why 2019, I forget exactly when and I’ve always previously the regional coordinator, for the UK Island, South Africa region and I have been playing magic for about 20 22 years somewhere in that region. Since invasion. I’m particularly a pre-release head, that’s my my favorite type of to be, at whether I’m judging or playing or both. I mean, I’m always loving to be a privileges. But, of course, I am not being level. Three also really do like, going to some of the, the bigger events. And I’ve certainly missed them over the last couple years and was really excited to be able to get back to some of the first large competitive events that have been run in the UK since the pandemic has become a little bit more manageable. So I think that’s my favorite type of tournament to be, at whether I’m judging or playing or both. I mean, I’m always loving to be a privileges. But of course, I am not being level. Three also really do like going to some of the, the bigger events. And I’ve certainly missed them over the last couple years and was really excited to be able to get back to some of the first large competitive events that have been run in the UK since the pandemic has become a little bit more manageable. So I think it’s It’s been really exciting to be back into that really just starting to get back in. But was a bit daunting because like you said, Daniel like people have just, you know, we’ve all gotten a bit Rusty had less practice. Particularly of competitive, Ariel, like a lot of places, you know, people have managed to keep their hand in with playing the game or possibly even going to events but come pestiv Ariel is really been something more rarified. So there’s an interesting experience in terms of trying to pick things up.

1:03:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
Wow. Yeah, right on. Yeah, it’s a it’s funny actually didn’t something. I didn’t realize is that you and I actually started playing magic writer on the same time. I’m also a product of invasion. And man, mentioning a large tournaments alongside Pre-releases, it just makes me think of the, the large regional Pre-releases that we had back in those days and I, I do miss those, but I also understand that If fostering local store environments is really, really important and is really a big feature of modern-day pre-releases. This beside the point, though. Um, but yeah. So so what kind of competitive tournaments have you been working recently? Like, what was the format? How many players we end up with?

1:03:54 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Hmm. So this was a weekend run by the UK organizer action now, and they are quite impressive for having sort of invented their own series of local things in the UK, and being very, they’re very well respected organizer and they ran a sort of met what they call a mega weekend in Birmingham and that consisted of a large capacitive modern tournament on the Saturday, which I was the head judge of and

1:04:18 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:04:19 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
that had around 300 players. And then on the Sunday, we had a two major events. We had a modern trios tournament, which was me head judging again, with around 200 players. And we also had a running parallel to that a large legacy tournament with about 110 players and yeah, and in

1:04:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right on.

1:04:40 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
particular we were looking at these sort of sort of things coming, having been one previous mega particular we were looking at these sort of things coming, having been one, previous mega weekends, a few weeks And in particular, we were looking at these sort of things coming, having been one, previous mega weekends, a few weeks, prior to that. And but those are really the sort of the first two large comparable events that Been gonna run in the country since really the staff of pandemic. So that’s what we were kind of looking at and there was, of course, side events and things happening at least, as well.

1:05:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hmm. So you mentioned that the these mega weekends and that this day tournament series being run by a single organizers. So I I think, I think in back in terms of the old Star City, the Star City tour that used to exist. That’s now turned into Star City Con. But then also, I think about the, the nerd, rage gaming, the nrg series that we’ve got out in the Midwest of the US Where so is this, is this like one of those where it’s it feeds into a bigger tournament, like the folks that win the big tournament on Saturday. For example, did they qualify for big

1:05:34 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
No, so it is the more sort of

1:05:35 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:05:36 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
standalone and touring the country to some extent, but a little bit more based around where acting is based, which is in London. And but usually around the sort of

1:05:43 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:05:45 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
of the country. So, and the previous one had been in Milton south and center of the country. So, and the previous one had been in Milton Keynes, which is a little way north of London. This one was in Birmingham, pretty much in the middle of the country,

1:05:53 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:05:53 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
they are they’ve been they’re used to actually run these. These used to be Grand Prix, trials back in the day and they used to have

1:06:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, okay.

1:06:00 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
two 300 player. Grand Prix trials because they just put a load of extra price support into them and around these events and

1:06:06 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:06:07 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
And then they’ve once Grand Prix trials, ceased existing, they’re kind of kept running them as just a large series of standalone tournaments. The most significant things, structurally about them, is that the organizers and particularly and the main organizer for these things for really enjoys people being able to play single elimination rounds and therefore his tournaments usually have multiple topics.

1:06:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh interesting.

1:06:31 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
so they’ll be a kind of one through eight top eight that are competing for the biggest prizes and then 9 through 16 will usually be playing off for something else and for the the model on the Saturday, we had

1:06:41 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:06:42 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
three top eights. Playing out to for various different prizes and then the legacy on the Sunday actually had five. So a huge number of people are actually sort of progressing to the elimination rounds and having something extra to play for the Swiss

1:06:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
That’s really interesting. So so this is definitely something that we can we can touch on. Because when I was at Star City Con Star City games con in Dallas, a handful weeks ago there, we had a modern 30k tournament, it was the big tournament of the weekend, and we ran day one and then there was a cut, I believe, we had eight rounds on day one. Cut at six and two 18 match points are better. Those folks made day two and then after so at the end of a few more rounds of Swiss, on day two, we then cut to a top 12 which was really

1:07:31 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:07:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
So for the first through fourth seeds, all had a round one by in the interesting. seeds, all had a round one by in the interesting. So for the first through fourth seeds, all had a round one by in the

1:07:37 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
and I’m sure.

1:07:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
elimination, right? So, that, that math works out for the for those that are less familiar with single innovation brackets. Anytime you add a buy in a first round, it’s like adding an additional player and these work best with powers of two, right? So one, two, four, eight sixteen, thirty two. So if you go with 12 and you get four players to buy that gets you to 16 and that’s, you know, effectively A, You have your finals, your semis, your quarters. We then have an additional round

1:08:02 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah. Yeah, kind of works the same way.

1:08:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
effectively, right? It was it was just a really I I thought it was really cool. It was an additional reward for the folks that placed higher in the seed. It kind of eliminated that thing of like that ninth place always feels really bad. Just ninth place still made the playoffs and but you also still get

1:08:16 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:08:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
this kind of extra reward for placing the top seeds because not only do you not have to play around, you don’t have to play around like you get a break in there of a good solid hour

1:08:28 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:08:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
while fifth through 12th are playing through their first rounds. And there were a couple of upsets too. Like the where the lower seated player actually did actually was victorious over it. So that’s really interesting. So it’s interesting to hear that there’s this is not a specific thing to the Star City tour, but it seems like there’s also other other organizers are experimenting with different playoff structures.

1:08:55 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, yeah, because I think that, you know, when you’re not running something that is an official, you know, wizards play network or whatever event that has a defined structure. You’ve got a lot more flexibility as an organizers. It’s just to run it in the way that you want to run it into the way that you think it will make your players happy. And so it was an interesting thing to see them, you know, experiment with and try some different stuff.

1:09:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
All right on. So you mentioned that the the big tournament on Saturday was a was about 300 players. I think you said

1:09:22 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, good take.

1:09:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
What’s tournament software did you run it on?

1:09:27 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Huh, good question. Good question. So it was actually being run Huh, good question. Good question. Walter and so the Walter and so the Huh, good question. So it was actually being run on Walter and so the previous weekend, the previous one of these mega

1:09:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, okay.

1:09:35 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
weekends wizards had asked us to round things on companion and Eventlink as a kind of trial by fire

1:09:44 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:09:45 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
And unfortunately with there were some significant issues so it ended up not working out very well and having some delays and problems and particularly they were trying to do, everything remote sort of through the phone app and avoid paperings but he just wasn’t practical and the software. Unfortunately, it wasn’t able to scale to that. So for this one, we were running everything on Walter and that didn’t mean that we had to prepare people. That they would see. Something that said it was a DCI number on their results slip because that’s how the software works but we

1:10:17 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:10:18 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
But we just they were just the first person to enroll in the tournament. Gotten number one series, Zero Zero,

1:10:22 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:10:23 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
you know, so on, because the other thing that Them. There are people coming to these events that don’t have these young numbers and never did.

1:10:30 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:10:30 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
So you know, we So you know we didn’t make any effort to try to use old people’s old numbers. We just sort of assigned everybody temporary ones.

1:10:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
On. Yeah, I’m so I remembering back to. So, a star city gamescom Dallas. We used for the bigger for all the smaller tournaments. We were using companion and event link and it worked wonderfully. And I’ve actually a really big fan of

1:10:49 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:10:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
the event link experience. I got my, most of my experience with it when I was at Paxon plugged at the back in, December of 2021 and the ability to just start to, just go to my players and go. All right? You’re pairings are now pushed to your apps like it was wonderful.

1:11:08 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:11:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
And like, so, when it works, well, it works beautifully and I think it

1:11:12 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Absolutely terrific.

1:11:12 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:11:13 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
We were same thing. We were using it for the drafts and stuff at this event. So for that small scale stuff, it’s great. But unfortunately the back end just just doesn’t have can’t scale to the kinds of anything of this kind of size.

1:11:26 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, for sure. And and I, I will say like it, the, the mobile experience does leave a little bit to be desired, especially on a like, I not one of the bigger phones like your iPhone, pluses, or What have you? I, I personally am in lucky enough that I have a, I have an iPad Mini that is actually this, the perfect size for stuff like that, but for my actual phone, it’s not not quite there, but it’s not far off. And it was, it was workable just not And so, what

1:11:53 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:11:54 pm – Daniel Lee:
And so, what we ended up using for, for the bigger events at starting, Dallas, was we used mtg melee and

1:12:02 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
I mean.

1:12:02 pm – Daniel Lee:
for, for, for anyone, for any of our viewers that are really, that are interested in hearing more for, for anyone, for any of our viewers viewers that are really, that are interested in hearing more about melee, actually. We’re gonna talk to Jason flatford tomorrow that will be at 4pm Pacific if anyone wants to tune in and catch that he’ll be talking about the tournament controller for Mtg melee um and I know and one of the things that I really appreciate about Jason Foster frequently goes by flats. One of the things I really appreciate about flats Is very quick to take feedback, turn it around and implement it. So, a lot of the things that I that we noticed when it came to the the judge side of using Of using Mtg melee was there was there was just some usability things that weren’t super great on phones and it’s just like Yeah this like when you open this window it scales to a weird place. You have to scroll over there and there were workarounds but it was just a thing that he had never focused time on and so now what we let him know and those have already been fixed and optimized so it’s it’s really cool to see someone have that kind of a turnaround on it. Um, so let’s get back to, let’s get

1:13:04 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:13:05 pm – Daniel Lee:
back to tournament policy and you mentioned that you have some specific stories that you wanted to that you wanted to share from from your events.

1:13:13 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, so I’m what I’m going to do is probably start by talking a little bit Yeah. probably start by talking a little bit bit about the kind of prep for this event and the kind of lead up to it. And then perhaps talk about some specific rulings and policy things that came up from the actual event on the day. So we kind of talked at the top of

1:13:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
Sounds good.

1:13:27 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
the session about you know, many judges have perhaps gotten a bit rusty. Some people perhaps, have not judged a in-person large event like this since since they became judges and I

1:13:38 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:13:39 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
think think it’s important, of course, that’s equally true for players and

1:13:42 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:13:42 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
plenty of players who haven’t really necessarily had much chance to practice with physically manipulating cards being players. And plenty of players who haven’t really necessarily had much chance to practice with physically manipulating cards being responsible for a players. haven’t really necessarily had much chance to practice with physically manipulating cards being responsible for a remembering their own triggers, and game states and effects and things like that. And indeed, you could have had some people who maybe picked up arena towards the beginning of the pandemic as they were looking for something

1:14:00 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:14:01 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
do when during lockdown periods as therefore been playing for more than

1:14:03 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:14:05 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
two years. and yeah, it’s never, you know, played really with paper cards and is

1:14:10 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:14:10 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
somebody who knows? Magic, well, it doesn’t know how paper tournaments work on these again. Doesn’t have that familiarity. So when we were thinking about kind

1:14:16 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:14:18 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
of prep and the lead up for this, as as head, judge a lot of my consideration was going into making sure that the judges had taken the time to read through the documents again, to refresh their memory of these things. But then also remembering that we’re dealing with an audience that perhaps, you know, their muscle memory for shuffling, has gotten a little loose, their actual memory for

1:14:39 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:14:41 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
triggers and maintaining the game. Status is a little bit out of practice because they’re more used to having that dealt with by arena or magic online. And they’re not as used to doing it themselves. Or if they are doing it themselves they’re doing this as a regular Ariel setting where you just kind of patch things and it’s not really gonna be as much of a deal whereas things like If you miss your triggers, your triggers are gone. If you are keeping life totals you need to be doing it with some kind of tracking So that we can see history, these kinds of policies of things with the things I was communicating to my judge team. These are things to think about, you

1:15:13 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:15:14 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
know, this is the stuff that we want to be on remembering and also of course focusing not just on the policy side but also in the customer service side, you know, this is a big, welcome back to people who, you know, are just starting to experience in person events again. And so another part of it was about making sure that we are being welcoming, we’re being positive, we’re helping people through this stuff and even if there is a need to be enacting any policy, if there’s penalties or anything like that, that we’re kind of keeping up that positive customer service kind of facing way of approaching things as well. So that people feel, okay? I understand what’s happening and why I feel like this is fair resolution of things.

1:15:52 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:15:52 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
And that was a big what we wanted to do.

1:15:54 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. So there’s a few things I wanted to. I wanted to just mention before we before we get too far into this. I I also had the exact same concern when going into a lot of these events. I’ve worked recently, I worked the Hunter Burton tournament back in back. In March, I worked the Star City Games on Dallas just last month in April and the reality that we have might have a lot of players that had only ever experienced digital magic, was absolutely forefront. I’m realizing though that the specific like, Oh, I’ve only ever played magic on arena. And now I’m playing it here in person was a little bit less likely only because I’ve worked a lot of modern tournaments recently. In modern isn’t on arena, right?

1:16:30 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:16:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
I actually really interested the if anyone happens to know if they’ve run any big standard tournaments recently, where that played a huge US, but Big Issue. But also even if they got into magic online and they’re playing modern on there, like you still run into the same sort of issues there, right?

1:16:47 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
yeah, you’re still gonna have the same kind of things where you’re kind of getting used to the software taking care of a certain amount of the rules and stuff for you and therefore you know you’re not you’re not kind of getting that kind of practice and there’s those reps in with thinking about things of getting used to the software taking care of a certain amount of the rules and stuff for you and therefore you know you’re not you’re not kind of getting that kind of practice and there’s those reps in with thinking about things and even

1:17:00 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:17:02 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
just as I say stuff like, you know, we had what I would think for the end of this size and above average, number of Looking at extra cards and shuffling issues where people were just, you know, a little bit less physically practiced with shuffling and, you

1:17:15 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:17:15 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
know, all drawing, you know, there was they were having problems with, you know, just sort of making slips and cards flipping over and things like that because it’s just less familiar. And and people therefore remain a more likely to make mistakes tonight. We were very much, the messaging, we’re trying to get was not to be coming down on people like a ton of bricks here but just, you know, to be

1:17:34 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:17:34 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
our best to kind of help people out, you know, give the penalties, get things sorted, do that in a very kind of light and kind of friendly manner and, you know, get the game correct and move things on and that that was the kind of the focus for me in terms of what I was actually, the messaging I was trying to get to point to my staff and my team was to get them to think about these things and to Well, basically, to remember the paper magic is is messy. You know, people, it relies entirely

1:17:59 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:18:01 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
on two human beings to remember a very complicated game, a very complicated set of cards and to maintain the game states, and it’s very easy to miss things to make mistakes and in a way that Not just online. But actually, even when we’re thinking about things like reading and policy documents or taking judge examinations, the nature of those things is that they have to kind of describe things in a fairly constrained and slightly artificial

1:18:27 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:18:28 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
way. Whereas real world is a lot messier

1:18:29 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:18:31 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
and it doesn’t usually sort of line up quite so neatly. You know, I can I, you know, once or twice in your career, you might have, you know, somebody who messes up in a way that’s like literally the example in the IPG.

1:18:43 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:18:43 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
That normally, that’s not what

1:18:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
Judge I cast my brainstorm by

1:18:44 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
happened, not quite it’s a little bit different and it’s it’s a little bit different and it’s it’s a little bit different and it’s it’s it’s a little bit different and it’s it’s a little bit messier. And you’ve got to try and think about okay, well, what’s the best fit here? And what can I do to try to align this to the policy? Even if maybe the real situation is a little bit different?

1:18:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Judge I cast my brainstorm with green mana. It’s like Wait.

1:19:02 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Another one.

1:19:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
I know this one. Yeah, no it and just for anyone watching in case you may feel like like okay, yeah, sure, some people are rusty but it’s not me. I’ve been doing this for a long time. I’ve been playing. I’ve been I haven’t been back working tournaments for six months at this point. A player in my pioneer event last night. My local game store said, Hey, you remember, when you played emergent ultimatum to go get oogan the spirit Dragon a couple weeks ago and I said, Yes, I do. Remember that he’s like, Yeah, do you remember that?

1:19:30 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Can’t do that.

1:19:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
I’m like, Oh, I’m like, Oh, that’s his mono color, doesn’t it? Oh, like so

1:19:33 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:19:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
So even So even I could So even I could make a mistake. and not realize it for three weeks. So like,

1:19:38 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Oh yeah.

1:19:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
So like and I’m about as in franchise to judges you’re gonna find in this program at this point. So like if you don’t think it, don’t think that applies to you. Maybe have a little more humility about that because we are all rusty.

1:19:50 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Oh yeah. And there are 23 24,000 magic cards. And a lot of them have these literally tiny little wording subtle wording differences that can really trip you up if you’re not like used to, if you’re not really paying attention, one of the things I’ve

1:20:05 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:20:05 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
thought of recently, for example, is looking at some of the exile and then you can play it until time period cards that you’ve been seeing in red

1:20:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh sure.

1:20:14 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
and they don’t all line up.

1:20:15 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:20:16 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
So, even just within streets of new

1:20:16 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:20:18 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Capana, and Laura Brask works differently from unlucky, witness and rob the archives. And those both work differently, from what we might be used to, from some

1:20:28 pm – Daniel Lee:
The stage.

1:20:28 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
previous sets. So we’ve had so much of this turn some which are until the end of your next turn someone which are until your next end step and they’re all

1:20:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Oh yeah.

1:20:37 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
slightly different but similar. And that’s really where I think a lot of people get caught up is when they used to kind of using mental shortcuts and the batching cards together. Oh this this group, you can’t work like that and then when they print a car that’s like a little bit different it’s difficult because people tend to still mentally patch it but then get batch it with everything else but then kind of get caught out by the fact that actually it’s just a little bit different and

1:21:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
I’ve actually got a great experience when I was writing the The Streets of New, Capena Hard Update Quiz. There’s a question in there about librella, The Magpie, and there have been there been lots of discussions about how the wording on that card is. But the one

1:21:11 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
You know, one of the worst templates of cards in years.

1:21:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
But and here’s the funny part is that the I made a mistake when writing that question in the first place, but the mistake had nothing to do with the targeting restriction. It had to do with the fact that the part of the effect that puts the counters on the creature. That comes back under your control, is a reflexive trigger and not a replacement effect. Like I thought it was I thought it was that creature enters with counters. I just assumed because I hadn’t read that far on the card. It wasn’t the part, those screwing everyone up. So yeah absolutely yeah. That’s that’s certainly a real thing that happens. So one bit on one bit when it comes to policy on these events that I wanted to make sure we at least addressed because it is the elephant in the room. Is that One of the primary ways that paper magic nowadays looks different from a little over two years ago at this point is that a lot of events I’m not gonna say all of them but a lot of events are requiring masks or vaccine or a proof of negative test and things like that. So my experience has been for the mass mandatory events that most the vast majority of players. The most, they will need is a slight reminder. Hey, can you put the mask up over your nose? Or? Hey, can you like, like, I see you finish? Eating, like, Can you please put your mask back on? There’s just, and if you’re gracious about it, I have never run into an issue. Across a handful of events over the last six months is that about been your experience as well.

1:22:33 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, so this was a little different for us. So just before the event the the kind of the UK rules change such that there was a no longer any kind of mask mandate or any kind of vaccine pass. So they’ve basically sort of retired the field of vaccine path system part

1:22:52 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:22:52 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
part, which was not ideal, but it between one, the event was announced and plan, and it was actually happening the sort of restrictions went away. So this event actually ended up not having a mandate, I personally couldn’t wish it had had one, and I would have been more comfortable with it, but it meant that we didn’t have that as an issue, what we did do, however, is make sure that all of the judges were provided with sort of high, quality N95. Equivalent masks. And had access to those if they wanted them. And basically, I think everybody on the staff that was able to use those balls using those. And I think that that helped to model good behavior, for many of the players who then, you know, their own volition decided to do the same. I did go through a couple of smaller scale, local events earlier on and that that did have those events and that my experience was much like yours and occasionally needing to remind people. And, to put things on properly into, you know, not not sort of press the

1:23:55 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:23:56 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
limits or forget to remask, after eating, or have you.

1:23:58 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:23:59 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
And they didn’t really have any issues with this. I think, I think people kind of understand if that’s the rules of the event that they’re going to. Then that’s the rules the event. And you, this isn’t really something that’s kind of up to beta on the day.

1:24:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, cool. Um so yeah. So with that addressed, let’s go ahead and dive into your the specific stories. You’ve got to share from Yeah, cool. So yeah. So with that addressed, let’s go ahead and dive into your the specific stories. You’ve got to share from

1:24:22 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, definitely. I’m gonna get open my little notes thing by the way to. I different people work in different ways but for me, I’m always when I’m head, judging something. When I’m at something like this, I’m always trying to make notes of stuff and keep track of things for this. One, in particular, I was very conscious of it because it’s I knew that I was. For example, gonna have a judge who was covering my lunch breaks when I was head judge and on the sound Sunday, when we had the two events in parallel and we wanted to try and be consistent with things. So I was making sure to write stuff down to communicate with with winter who is head, touching that event.

1:24:57 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:24:57 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
So, I’ve got a few things about some backups and appeals and investigations that we can talk about the first one I think is quite interesting. So this was the very first kind of interesting ruling that I had from the weekend, which was talking about authorizing a backup. So what happens here is first player plays, a one coil engine second player Spellpiest, is it? And the people that recognize card names will notice, this is where it’s going wrong because spelled this, I guess non Greek spells and but the

1:25:24 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:25:24 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
But the players didn’t notice that at the time, That they won’t call engine player. Past the Spellpiest player cracked. Fetch at the end of turn drew a card for their turn, attacked then pass back. Then the Tron player who played the worm coil in the first place, draws a card for their turn and then they realize when they’re looking thinking Man I really wish I had that worm call engine right now. They’re like actually hang on.

1:25:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
Wait a minute.

1:25:50 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
It’s spelled it.

1:25:51 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:25:51 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
I shouldn’t right now and so this was a backup with quite a lot of game actions, having occurred I shouldn’t right now and so this was quite a lot of game actions having occurred

1:26:02 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:26:04 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
from the other the other player as well.

1:26:05 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:26:07 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
So there was quite a lot involved in this one. We did discuss it for a while because This is one of those unfortunate situations where the impact of the mistake is pretty substantial the player who’s worm call engine got spell pierced instead of having a powerful blocker, and life link.

1:26:23 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:26:24 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
And withstand the attack was left with

1:26:24 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:26:26 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
nothing and was going to lose the game. And while that isn’t an element of what we considered with policy, you it’s always in the back of your mind when you’re making these decisions. You can’t just not pay attention to

1:26:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
first area, it’s

1:26:39 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
that. I think you’ve got to sort, you’ve got to be conscious of it and particularly in terms of how you’re delivering it. But we looked at that you know two full turn cycles and in particular. The critical thing for us in this discussion was that fetch land and

1:26:50 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:26:51 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
the presence of that fetch land. Meant that if we did back this up and the other player, gets to put a, you know, we randomly put the card back on their library and it happens to be the worst one and not the one that they drew, then they can fetch to read, you know, to kind of get an advantage and that

1:27:08 pm – Daniel Lee:
We actually, we gave you free brainstorm effectively.

1:27:10 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, exactly now.

1:27:11 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:27:11 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
But Now but that advantage Now but that advantage that in this specific context that advantage is much smaller than the advantage they get by being able to spell piece of creatures. Well

1:27:19 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:27:19 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
But that isn’t the comparison? We’re making the popular museum. I’m only are we introducing disruption, because of the action of the, of the application policy versus the mistakes of the players make themselves. So, there wasn’t big mistake with a big impact made in this situation, but it was the fault of the players involved. We were very sympathetic to the player who and lost out here, but we

1:27:41 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:27:44 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
did decide not to back it up. It was appealed and we upheld that I think it’s unfortunately it’s one of

1:27:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.

1:27:49 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
unfortunately, it’s one of those situations where the policy is pretty clear, even if the outcome is fun for it on, and and unpleasant in this particular situation, but I think that that’s an

1:27:57 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:27:59 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
important one for consistency think.

1:28:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
I had a so I had a similar one that came up at I believe that this was at Sgcon Dallas and it was a amulet player who had Gone through their entire had gone through an entire turn of like cast. Explore cast, a dry to the leasing grove playing play. This bounce land and return it and then play another bounce, land and float, man. And all this stuff and like, was a pretty good setup turn for them and then they get to the end of turn and realize that they forgot to put their second counter on their urza saga.

1:28:36 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:28:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
And so, this was so that was one of those were like, there was a lot of game actions going on. But again, like the amount of game actions, even the amount of time that’s passed, is not really what it is. You have to look at these specifics of the game actions. And the only thing that was really kind of problematic and any in any sense was the fact that they drew that card off of Explorer. But none of the cards that they played afterwards, were actually a problem after that, because there was a dry at least in grove, there was the Suva copying of Ellicott. But like, they’re just because there were a lot of game actions doesn’t actually change how this turn is going to play out, especially since we’ll put a random card back on top and then they will draw it again when they recap it.

1:29:18 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:29:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
Or so, This Or so, this is one of. So even though they both look like complicated scenarios yours with relatively fewer actions is bigger problem because of the specific kinds of actions involved, the shuffle and the drawing cards, where?

1:29:33 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:29:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, whereas on, whereas in mind, it was just a Have actions that are very likely going to proceed. Exactly the same way. Once we back up, put the counter on and then proceed from there and

1:29:43 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Oh yeah. And that’s the sort of situation where like sometimes even I will sort of say to the players. Do we agree that? Even if we do this backup, you’re going to do exactly the same things. And we’re going to end up in the same game state with a counter on They say yes.

1:29:56 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:29:56 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
I definitely going to do that. Like, okay, well, let’s just put that counter on and save everybody to about the time going through the motions. Like it’s one of those things where yeah that’s what the policies trying to achieve it. It’s like the backup shouldn’t change the the game because then we’re we as the judges are introducing changes which is something we’re trying to, you know, strategic differences in the game which we try to avoid and that was very much the difference.

1:30:16 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:30:19 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
I think, you know, when we had several other backups that were similar and I actually had another one on as a saga and and this is

1:30:26 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:30:27 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
actually an important sort of rules sort of rules /. Policy thing, I think to reemphasize, also considering And and this is actually an important sort of rules /. Policy thing. I think to reemphasize, also considering that as a saga is so ubiquitous, which is that you might be thinking. Oh, but you know, it’s a mistry you just missed it, putting the On sagas is not a trigger ability. It’s a, it’s a term based action annoyingly, and the consequences of putting those counters on are trig and abilities, but the actual adding account is not.

1:30:51 pm – Daniel Lee:
Kentucky, right. Yeah, yeah. The the triggers are as a result of The the triggers are as a result of Kentucky, right. Yeah. The the triggers are as a result of The the triggers are as a result of

1:31:06 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, like it’d be very weird for the kind of trigger that could be missed for the player to get as Yeah. kind of trigger that could be missed of trigger that could be missed for the player to get as far

1:31:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I’d have.

1:31:16 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
And most drinks like those are saga’s. First two triggers are completely invisible, so long as they So long as they And most things like those are saga’s. First two triggers are completely invisible, so long as they

1:31:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right acknowledge.

1:31:21 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
There’s no, there’s no way of you proving that they didn’t know those abilities were there. Like, so, if they start tapping it

1:31:25 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:31:27 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
for colorless, two turns, later having not done anything with it in the intermediate time like, well, I guess they remember the trigger and I

1:31:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, exactly.

1:31:33 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:31:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. And, and then same thing for I’m thinking, like, fable of the Mirror Breaker, If you take up to the second counter and then don’t discard any cards. That’s actually just a legal resolution of that trick.

1:31:41 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, that’s just something you can do. Yeah, you can absolutely do that.

1:31:43 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:31:44 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
And so we have another one that I thought was in terms of backups. So sanctifier on back, exiles, black and red cards from. It’s like rest in peace that just for black and red cards.

1:31:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, right.

1:31:56 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
And it had the battlefield and the within we kind of resulted and then the game that continued for a while. But some red cards had ended up in graveyards not been exiled and correctly and then shortly after that. But this was discovered, when the player with the red cards in their graveyard was removing them in order to delve them that kind of regent. And which yeah of course having access to those cards makes a difference to how much they have to spend for their website region. And at that point they were they

1:32:27 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:32:29 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
realize that these cards shouldn’t have been there. And this is one where the backup is a little bit different. Really because the cards in wrong zone fix is just Exile things and hasn’t went into discovered. So in this specific case, we decide, you know, we decided that really the only the issue was with casting, the Smoke Tide region. So we only wound rewound the casting of the Merktide region. In cards in the wrong. That shouldn’t be in the graveyard out into exile, where they were supposed to be and then had the game continue from that point. And that was another thing I thought was interesting, just in terms of, you know, what, when you actually backing up to what’s that, what’s what’s the actual point?

1:33:10 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:33:11 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
was a problem?

1:33:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
So this is that I’m actually really happy about it this scenario because there’s a it’s a it touches on an important bit of policy that I think doesn’t get quite talked about enough. There is a line in the text for game. Rule violation that talks about a simple backup and it’s not really

1:33:29 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:33:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
defined what that is. And it’s, that’s kind of intentional because it’s meant to be a. It’s meant to be a thing that sort of occurs to you as a possible option. When it actually makes sense to. So this is a great example, because normally the line for backups is you either You, you look at the like default fixes or you go all the way back or you don’t go back at all, right?

1:33:50 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:33:51 pm – Daniel Lee:
So like so this is kind of an odd little like, there’s an extra option here, where if there is a default fix going on for that, that does make sense. But it only makes sense, if you’re like half a step back in time, like exactly like the scenario, we’re like Okay those cards being exiled though, kind of needs to happen before this merc tide gets paid for or else. That’s not. It’s not really addressing the problem. So and I I absolutely agree with you that backing up the casting of the merchaid. Regent really does fit the definition of a simple backup. That’s a very straightforward thing to back up and it’s very short in terms of game actions. So now we fit, we do this simple backup so that our prescribed fix makes sense and actually addresses the problem. And so, I think that’s a really good scenario to bring absolutely good. We could note that about the that little simple backup rule and how I think there’s a great example of it.

1:34:46 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Right. I got one more backup one. I want to know what you would have done in this one because if I I have

1:34:52 pm – Daniel Lee:
I go for.

1:34:53 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
thought about a little bit so player, please turn one. Their first land is beside you who India’s

1:35:00 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:35:01 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Pen does something second turn. Their second land is beside you. Who endures? They tap both of those legendary. Land with the same name to cast strangle rootgeist and attack for two. And then at the as they’re passing the turn, the spectator calls me over and points out that paid. Those are two of the same legendary land. What would you what do you think you would have done there?

1:35:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
Rule, interesting. Okay, so so occurs me that the real, the question is, Do you hold them to having so so you can kind of look at this in two ways, you can look at this as that player. Pretty clearly did not intend to play a land that was instantly going to wasteland themselves.

1:35:41 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, they just didn’t realize that they were legendary animal.

1:35:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, wow. Okay. Um, so I As much as I as someone that feels compassion for the player would like to give them the opportunity to play a different land.

1:36:25 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
yep, I think that’s reasonable and we also looked so it is possible to end up with that scramble rootgeist on the battlefield, even with those two lands because you can

1:36:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
You float, the one? Yeah.

1:36:34 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
You can float a green play the other land.

1:36:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
but that would have required but that

1:36:37 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
I mean this wasn’t it.

1:36:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
would have required that decision to be made before the land was played.

1:36:41 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, you would have to explicitly do that. But then also of course if we had discovered that same problem, Three turns later than the fix would have been. Well, just put one of your Mercedes in the graveyard now. And because you haven’t, I can.

1:36:52 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, sure. Yeah.

1:36:54 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, you have a continually a game state that continues to not be legal, you know.

1:36:58 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:36:58 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
This isn’t point mistake. This isn’t ongoing error for as long as those Mercedes are both there.

1:37:02 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Absolutely.

1:37:04 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
And so, in the end, what we did end up just making like, they, they kept the guys that we made them put a land in the graveyard, but I think you can very reasonably justify either fix

1:37:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
I put a I I tend to describe situations like this, as I would make one call, someone else would make a different call but I’d probably uphold either one on appeal. Okay. Because there, but yeah, when you’ve got to two scenarios that are pretty well, defensible within policy than it comes down to a matter of. Um, and not every not every person that’s putting a head judge rule necessarily agrees this way. And some amount of variation is not really the end of the world when it comes to policy calls. But there’s definitely a. There is something to be said for if you don’t think the interpretation of policy that was used to make the initial call, if you do not think it was wrong. If you just happen to have gone down a different path to get to what might have been a different solution had you been the first person take the call, there is still value to supporting your judges and not introducing a modicum of doubt. In a judge’s ruling and it judges ability to make it correct ruling if there is a defensible path that gets them there. So I think there’s there’s some

1:38:22 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, I’m

1:38:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
there is all I mean

1:38:24 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, I think it’s something that’s worth considering like I not in the cases where you need sort of bit. We’re talking deviations and errors, but where it things like this way?

1:38:32 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:38:33 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
You can kind of choose to interpret it into ways, which are both defensible and then, you know, as it happens this was I was the kind of cool taking judge on this one. So I just got to do what I wanted to do.

1:38:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay. Hey.

1:38:47 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
And, And you know, come to me with that one and they had picked either of those solutions. I don’t think really. Yeah, I would have had any trouble with supporting neither either interpretation. I think they’re both reasonable ways of calling it.

1:39:02 pm – Daniel Lee:
There’s also, there’s an additional wrinkle. You could make where if we’re backing up to the point, when they have played the Osage you, are they now within the realm where they could go? Reversing decisions, never mind. I meant to play this island instead. I feel like that one’s much a much bigger stretch and I much less

1:39:19 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
yeah, I think that’s really is a

1:39:20 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:39:20 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
stretch like, this was clearly a

1:39:21 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:39:22 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
situation where they intended to play the passage. You, they this wasn’t like a grabbing wrong land from hands, kind of dexterity issue.

1:39:28 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:39:29 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
This was a completely not realizing this was a legendary land that and this was going to have this impact on them and just and have not thought

1:39:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. You have a? You have a different argument if there if if what had happened is they went to they played the second passage. You tap the two green lands and tried to cast like growth spiral or something, right?

1:39:46 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, or like oh and

1:39:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah then you’re like, Oh my gosh, I sorry, I thought this was but this island that’s in my hand, right?

1:39:51 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, or even just went forest, strangle route, guys. You know, that kind of thing where you have some evidence that you know there’s just there’s some kind of You know, physical slip up rather than just a strategic.

1:40:00 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:40:01 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
This is this was definitely a strategic error. This was definitely a intentional.

1:40:04 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:40:05 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
But not good. Play that the player made

1:40:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Yeah. Right on. Cool, so use so that’s that’s all.

1:40:15 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Moses backups and

1:40:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
Those things. Okay, cool.

1:40:16 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
I’m gonna, I’ve got a couple appeals couple of investigations we can talk about, and

1:40:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, sure.

1:40:21 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
so this first situation, so the player had played a chalice of avoid with one counter

1:40:30 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:40:31 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Sometime later they the chalice player played a one-cost spell,

1:40:35 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:40:35 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
neither play noticed anything. And then a few to several turns past before it was noticed that this had happened.

1:40:44 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:40:44 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
and this was a situation that was There’s a couple things going on with this. This is definitely the situation where first of all it is definitely too late to do anything about this.

1:40:55 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:40:55 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
missed chalice trigger. It is a detrimental mist trigger, you know, you missed something that would have counted your own spell from your own permanent, it was

1:41:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
so that player should be receiving a warning bare minimum

1:41:05 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yes, absolutely. But this was also something that

1:41:07 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:41:08 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
But this was also something that definitely set off the like alarm bells for. Let’s do a little bit of extra art question, asking him.

1:41:12 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:41:13 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, like this has this player just been a bit, boneheaded and forgotten about their own chalice which absolutely can happen or, you know, was this something as it happened? The game state didn’t provide any implicate you know that this wasn’t a backbreakingly important one drop, this was something that you know so

1:41:29 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:41:31 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
it didn’t there was no real reason to believe that there was a Pressing need for the person to be trying to sneak this through here.

1:41:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
It wasn’t like some kind of clutch

1:41:40 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
They really

1:41:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
spell, that was really gonna turn the tide of the game or anything.

1:41:42 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:41:43 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:41:43 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
No. And hence also why it was not noticed for several terms because it was some, Oh, I’ve randomly drawn

1:41:47 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:41:48 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
card and I’ve got nothing else to do in my turn. One drop go kind of situation.

1:41:51 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:41:53 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
whereas, I think. Yeah, there are certainly versions of that initial fact pattern where you’re investigation leads you into potentially doing some proper interrogating and Bearing in mind, that might be cheating. And in this particular situation, there wasn’t any. Again, this was a an appeal because the opposing play was like, Well my opponent has resulted this in legal spell and now and the there’s always people want and this was the same thing. We had with the one coil engines situation the like intuitive it seems fine to do this.

1:42:23 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:42:25 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Fix is just put the one call engine play or just put that one drop into the graveyard. The policy doesn’t give us those

1:42:30 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:42:31 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
options for these sort of partial

1:42:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
No, it does not.

1:42:33 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
fixes. And I think for very good reasons

1:42:34 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:42:35 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
because again, because again, we’re because again, we’re introducing more disruption into the game as judges by it. You know, you’ve made decisions based on what you thought the game state was and now we’re changing it.

1:42:45 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:42:45 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
And I

1:42:46 pm – Daniel Lee:
As a, as a good example, worm coil situation, if we just put the warm call on the battlefield, the other players out, a counter spell now like,

1:42:53 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:42:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
Like so if Like so if we actually do that Like so if we actually do that backup at least that player gets their spell Pierce back, right?

1:42:58 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:42:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
So we’re getting yeah.

1:42:58 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
And And also they they will And also they they will have made attacks and blocks and plays during their turn on the assumption that they haven’t unopened board. Not that on the assumption that there’s this 66 Life link showing up so you know they will have planned and played

1:43:08 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:43:10 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
differently accordingly. And yes of course, it was their mistaken that particular situation but I think in any one of these

1:43:16 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:43:17 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
situations you want to try and avoid it basically being that the, you know, the judges playing a significant. situations you want to try and avoid it basically being that the, you know, the judges playing a significant strategic part of the match he wanted

1:43:26 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:43:27 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
match, he wanted uninvolved in the strategic decisions as possible. And to go. And that was that was an upheld. You said that was appealed. It was upheld and it was the mystery had passed the point of relevance the player. Got a warning play continued. That was that was all that happened

1:43:43 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:43:45 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
And we had we had seven terms of rules questions. One of the major kind of, Cards. That was causing us. A lot of headaches was dressed down.

1:43:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hey yeah.

1:43:59 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:43:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
Or an article about that one, not too long ago about how? Hey, look, it’s the new humility and it’s got flash.

1:44:05 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yes it does. And hey and it also causes you to, you know, there has a couple of trigabilities that you can forget about too just to keep things

1:44:12 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yes, it does.

1:44:13 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
interesting. And so that we had a lot of rules questions from that. And we also had a lot of incorrect game states as a result. So, we had a couple of dress down

1:44:20 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:44:21 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
appeals, we had one where the player had played their dressed out, had played a dress down, not to remember the draw trigger and then made some attacks and that was a pretty simple. Well, you missed your trigger, move on. But we also had one where player had and I assumption in their head about how dressed down was going to interact with Cultura complete. The equipment that gives plus five

1:44:42 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:44:44 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
plus five plus five and a million abilities.

1:44:46 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:44:48 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
And they played the dress down because they were expecting it to strip away the full effect of the equipment, whereas it only strips away the abilities and not the plus five plus five parts.

1:44:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
Correct. Yeah. Mmm.

1:45:00 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
And so we had a situation there where the player basically was made some decisions based on in the inaccurate, understanding of the game state and they wanted to be able to, you know, change the mind because they’ve gotten this incorrect information. And again there’s just

1:45:17 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:45:18 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Like, this is one of those things. Again, you’ve made a decision which is completely legal, but strategically in advisable and you

1:45:23 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:45:25 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
your mind about playing the address down because playing it was completely legal even if it didn’t. Perhaps come to the the outcome that you would have wanted when you started this line.

1:45:35 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:45:36 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
And we just try to be you know, encouraged to play a hey if there’s anything you’re not sure about like this. Please just check with the judge like just ask before committing to doing anything and be very happy to help explain how that’s works for for you.

1:45:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
I remember at the modern tournament at Dallas, there was a match that I went to go sit down on because we were an underground procedure. So was a one of the one of the outstanding time extension so that they put me on it and I sat down and it was a It was just, it was wild because there were there were the evoke elementals on either side, there was a creature entering with counters. There was a dress down involved, There were some equipment being like, re-equipped to a creature after the dress down was cast, and I’m just glad I was there because that would have been a headache. And those players would not have gotten 80% of those interactions

1:46:31 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
No, no.

1:46:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
correctly. If I hadn’t been sitting there and could walk through it with them,

1:46:34 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Oh yeah. It’s it’s a very unintuitive effect and I’m glad that they don’t print it very often because it doesn’t lead to the outcomes that people expect in most in a lot of cases.

1:46:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Mm-hmm. Absolutely, but yeah, so it’s so dress down is certainly in has been an interesting shoot uh back to the SNC hard quiz. I got one of those interactions Mm-hmm. Absolutely. dress down is certainly in has been an interesting shoot uh back to the SNC hard quiz. I got one of those interactions

1:47:03 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Oh yeah.

1:47:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
because Blitz is a lot, like, Dash. It is not exactly the same as dash in some dress down relevant ways.

1:47:11 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, and it’s the same thing we were talking about earlier, where, like, you batch things together and you think. Oh yeah. But bash, blitz, that dashboard

1:47:19 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:47:21 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
blitz. They’re pretty much the same kind of thing, and, but again, it’s these little subtle differences can can matter a lot and can really trip you up.

1:47:26 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, absolutely.

1:47:29 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
I’ve got a few other things, then some investigations.

1:47:31 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:47:31 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
So So we have one where player cracked emissions, Bauble looked at the parents. Can’t go forgot to draw a card from their ball. And then after about a turn cycle,

1:47:41 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:47:42 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
they were like, Oh, I forgot to draw from my bowl, draw a card.

1:47:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, okay.

1:47:47 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
yeah, just instantly through the cards before the opponent had any time to say anything or do anything

1:47:52 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hmm. Right.

1:47:53 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
say anything or do anything and this is what I think exactly the kind of thing we were talking about at the top of the hour when we were talking about Rustiness, this is the kind of

1:48:00 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:48:00 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
thing that a regular real. That is what would end up happening over the kitchen table. That is what you would do. That’s not what you do at competitive Ariel. So we did have a bit of an

1:48:07 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:48:09 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
investigation here. investigation here. much anything fishy the much anything fishy There was no real sign that there was much anything fishy. The player had really just sort of rushed through and really stopped and thought about it. We investigation here. There was no real sign that there was much anything fishy. The player had really just sort of rushed through and really stopped and thought about it. We impressed investigation here. There was no real sign that there was much anything fishy. The player had really just sort of rushed through and really stopped and thought about it. We impressed upon the importance of calling judges, if you discover a mistaken, your game and not just trying to investigation here. much anything fishy. The player had really just sort of rushed through and really stopped and thought about it. We impressed upon the importance of calling judges, if you discover a mistaken, your game and not just trying to go and leaving with you drawing for cards. And But I think it’s, it’s exactly the kinds of mistakes that I think are very typical of people coming back to comp paper events after having, not done them in quite a while.

1:48:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right there. So there’s absolutely well, what’s the point I was going to say here We’ve we as to some degree, especially folks, that like we’re able to work a lot of Grand Prix and Magic fest. And a, lot of the bigger tournaments, we start to get a little used to how familiar with tournament process. A lot of the more in franchise competitive, like the more regular competitive seeing players can get to the point where they know something has gone wrong. I should call a judge and so a lot of players will think Well they won’t even have that thread in their mind. Especially they never played an in-person tournament for where there are judges and we are there as a

1:49:23 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:49:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
are judges and we are there as a think. think. Oh, this thing says, I get to resource for them so they’ll just think. Oh, this thing says, I get to draw a card,

1:49:32 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Oh, yeah.

1:49:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
And that’s yeah.

1:49:33 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
And And it is an easy thing and also like even if they’re being going to like stuff at the lgs, the judge that you’re lgs, is there as a resource to help you if you need an extra help, not as a mandatory part of fixing things like which is kind

1:49:46 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:49:47 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
of is something what we’re talking about in a competitive. So Very, very understandable. And one that I was, I really pleased with the deck checks judge that. I think they’ve made a really good call here, they noticed. So it was a classic kind of Deccan

1:50:00 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:50:03 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
deck lists, not matching situation

1:50:05 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:50:05 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
where Player had a slightly different and kind of main deck to what happens. Specifically, they had a 61 contact with an extra cardinal. They were playing in fact, and they had an extra blossoming defense and

1:50:16 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:50:16 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
which is he’s one of the situations that’s almost completely straight down the line. In the IPG tells you exactly what to do in this situation.

1:50:23 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:50:24 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
But I But I thought was really good here. Is that they actually thought, Okay so what are they playing against here? And then they were playing against a deck with a bunch of targeted removal spells. And so they asked me to get involved and to talk to the player because they are thinking. Well, this is probably just a last-minute deck building switching kind of mix-up. But in this situation, having access to that extra blossoming defense could actually be helpful. You know, there’s a targeted removal here. and and so we had

1:50:55 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:50:56 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
and so we had, and so we had, I and so we had, I had a discussion with the player and we did ultimately decide that it was just last the player making last minute changes and there were other signs on their deck list of like crossed out stuff and and switches and the clearly had

1:51:06 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:51:08 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
probably made some some switches last minute, but I think it was definitely one of those threads that’s worth pulling on to sort of thing. Well,

1:51:16 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:51:16 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, and this is another one of those things where I think you know, getting back into involved in paper, you’ve got to have that little second voice in your head that says Don’t just try to clap like what like you might be doing when you’re reading an exam. Question, Classify this figure out what they’re asking you and then sort of start following the policy. You have to have that extra little step. How you go, This isn’t a policy questions. This is a real thing. There’s a real situation. I’ve got to think about a little bit more. Just think about if there’s anything that might not considered any other avenues. And in this case the avenue was, well, maybe actually this players And brought in an extra card that would help them in this particular matchup. And I thought that was a good catch on the part of the deck, checks judge there.

1:51:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, absolutely. We We had an issue at the Hunter Burton tournament where a player was concerned about certain hand movements. That his opponent was making while while shuffling. And I think a lot of us are a while, sorry while searching for cards. So you can’t like crack effect land

1:52:17 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Oh sure.

1:52:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
be like searching through and it’s actually pretty common for players to superstitiously. Break up and be like searching through. And it’s actually pretty common for players to superstitiously, break up clumps, sometimes and so like, but then they shuffle their deck and if they’re randomizing that shouldn’t actually have any effect one way. The other which also means it’s not really a big problem but because that player brought it to our attention and like paid close enough attention to be like this is what I see. It’s probably this, but it could be an actual problem then because we

1:52:46 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:52:48 pm – Daniel Lee:
brought to that attention. We were able to observe the other player and I will say that player did not finish out to that tournament in the event.

1:52:58 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Very much.

1:52:58 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:52:58 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, that’s exactly the Yeah, that’s exactly the kind of thing that, you know, it’s really great when people have having thinking of noticing stuff and like, bringing stuff attention, and that kind of

1:53:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Yeah.

1:53:09 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
judgments again, just taking the time to think about it and think And does this feel right? Is there’s anything else that could be going on?

1:53:16 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:53:17 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Here should is this worth to, you know, doing a little bit of extra, kind of work on, you know, beating the panels, checking it out. And I also want to do to bring you a couple. Well I think I a trios policy question because trees isn’t exactly

1:53:30 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:53:32 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
common here.

1:53:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
Real quick question was this unified

1:53:33 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Oh yeah.

1:53:35 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:53:36 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Oh yeah. So this is that was a pleasanton dimension. So this was trio’s as it’s defined in

1:53:40 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:53:42 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
the magic tournament rules currently which means there’s there can be no overlap between the three decks

1:53:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay, so

1:53:50 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
whatsoever other than Planes Islands, virus.

1:53:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Yeah. So so yeah I think common problems would be calling that unified constructed, right? Where the decks kind of have to all be legal if stacked on top of each other.

1:54:02 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
It’s not quite that. It’s like, if I’m playing one flooded

1:54:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Yeah.

1:54:05 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
strands, no one else gets to play flooded strands.

1:54:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
That I remember that. Yeah, yeah. That I remember that that week was

1:54:08 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:54:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
made to it afterwards. made to it afterwards. But yeah, that’s but but the it gets

1:54:11 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:54:12 pm – Daniel Lee:
you the text kind of need to

1:54:15 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
The decks have to be. Yeah.

1:54:16 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:54:16 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
So we did because it had that policy had changed and there hadn’t exactly been a lot of treated on exactly a lot of trees tournaments. We did very explicitly announced that and clarified it and went. I spit like spoke the whole thing about two or three times and at the like leading up to the player meeting at the beginning of the day room, mentioning it and then I mentioned it again during the player meeting, just before we collected the deck lists, That apparently did not penetrate to one particular team.

1:54:43 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh no.

1:54:44 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
And so, what happened at some point is that one of the players played a flooded strand and then their opponents were like, Hey, that going your teammate over there also has flooded strands. So, we called over the job, they called over the judges and they were looking at it and we had resolved, Okay, well, this is pretty straightforward. One of the players gets to keep playing flooded strands. The other player gets to switch over to basics and get a game loss that

1:55:05 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:55:05 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
That seems straightforward enough. Well, I just because there was a gay

1:55:06 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:55:07 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
monster involved by disgusted with the floor judge, they went to go do that. while they were going and doing that, they discovered that the two players both also had polluted deltas

1:55:17 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:55:18 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
What? Would you or kind of take on that one? Be

1:55:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
I mean, so I mean you kind of get the same decision and they can actually if they want to If they want to make the choice where this player gets to keep playing with the flood, is trans that this player gets to keep playing with the polluted deltas, then they’re both ending up with a game loss as a result of that. But if one player is like, okay, I can swap out the deltas and the flooded strands. Then I think you keep that player to a single game loss, seems the more, it seems the better strategic decision, but I don’t know. That could be

1:55:59 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, that was essentially what we came down to is like, well, they have a choice, they can only have one

1:56:01 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:56:04 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
completely untouched deck, and one. Pretty destroyed Manifesteck and get

1:56:08 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:56:08 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
a game loss there or get too. Very much is as it happened. This was game. This was around one game one that this came up so they were like well,

1:56:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, okay.

1:56:16 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
we’d much rather get these game losses now. And have some what functional decks for the whole tournament rather than

1:56:21 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:56:22 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
only get one game lost now but then be stuck with one deck being really badly hampered with its mana base,

1:56:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
Shredded. Yeah.

1:56:29 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
going forward. But again, we just, as you said, we

1:56:30 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:56:32 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
gave the players, the choice. It’s like well this is easier. Your options here. You can split your fetches and get two game losses, or you can keep them all in one that can get one. Totally up to you, what you’re going to do. And but you, you have to make that decision reasonably quickly and then we’ll go get you some draft basics to help the rest.

1:56:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
There’s a There’s an interesting concept coming from hockey where when a, when one player on one team is put into the penalty box, the other team is what’s called on, it’s called a what’s on a power play, right? Because they have additional players on the ice and so it tends to be a good time to press the advantage and try to score the defending team. If the if that the entire duration of that penalty is gut has lasted and the the power play team has not scored. It’s called killing the penalty. So it’s like so you say the defending

1:57:18 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:57:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
team has killed the penalty because effectively they did not suffer any

1:57:25 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
we didn’t actually

1:57:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
lasting effects. Yeah, it didn’t actually, so it’s interesting. So I, I tend to think of, if a player gets a game loss and game one of their match and then proceeds to win the match 200 From there, they have effectively killed the penalty and so

1:57:38 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:57:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
And so so it’s it is kind of nice that since trios is played in a each one is a three game match then, even though each of them are getting a game loss, they’re still the opportunity for The third player to win their match and for one of them to kill their penalty and then they still get to win the match.

1:57:53 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah, that we have some some latitude

1:57:53 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:57:54 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
to do that and just finally on the

1:57:55 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:57:58 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
on the trios and I won’t obviously for obvious reasons going to the specifics. We And just finally on the trios and I won’t obviously for obvious reasons going to the specifics. We did have a disqualification of a player in the trios but interviews of course that leads to some awkward additional discussions because we just this was a player that was

1:58:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yes, it does.

1:58:12 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
disqualified for their actions that

1:58:13 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:58:14 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
actions that they have two teammates

1:58:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Yeah.

1:58:16 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
who are now in an awkward position and this is one of those situations where, you know, the other two players are dropped from the tournament effectively. I mean, the software records them as

1:58:25 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:58:27 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
technically disqualified but you know, they’re not in the tournament anymore wrong.

1:58:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
No. Yeah.

1:58:32 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
This is one of those situations where talking to your tournament, organizer is a great idea because they have the option to try to help to and make those players feel a lot better and feel like they’re having a better day and to smooth over any potential difficulties perhaps that because there are plenty, you can obviously imagine it in those situations. They might get Fractures and angry at their teammate who got them disqualified or they might be like on their side and level

1:58:56 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, for sure.

1:58:58 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
three of them, kind of ganging up on the judge that made the call. There’s a few different things that

1:59:02 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:59:02 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
can be could happen there. It’s a pretty fraud dynamic and having a good tournament organizer who has the Customer service skills and the latitude to, you know, award them, free stuff or refunds or whatever will help to smooth over that situation. That is something that they’re very well, positioned hand. And thankfully, we had I say very good to you and with whom we have a very good relationship and we’re able to basically, to hand over the, that part of the arm of the aftercare to them.

1:59:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, having it having a good relationship with the tournament organizer, so that they are also a resource for you. Especially in customer service. Contexts is is a big boon. Um One last thing I just want to mention on the topic of trios is that I actually ran a trios a modern trio’s tournament here locally in Los Angeles and that one was not unified. That was just pick three modern

1:59:54 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

1:59:54 pm – Daniel Lee:
and sit in an ABC and could play against. As long as a plays, A B plays bc, Please see. We don’t actually care like how you’ve, how you’ve arranged that and that was interesting, but it does result in the fact that that was modern, one of the big events in Vegas, was modern Hunter. work. Burton was modern, the big events I Dallas. Were modern. I am sick of elemental incarnations.

2:00:17 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Oh boy.

2:00:17 pm – Daniel Lee:
I don’t, I don’t need to see them ever again.

2:00:21 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Yeah. Oh you’ve got sagas and Rangers sagas and ragamans to. It’s it is a little bit of a modern horizons block constructed at the minute.

2:00:28 pm – Daniel Lee:
A little bit. Yeah, I you know what, I’m playing pioneer in paper and I love it. It’s, I’m really enjoying the format. It’s got some cool things going on. I get to play something adjacent to storm, even if it in the storm because I’m playing, Lotus Field because of course I am.

2:00:41 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

2:00:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
But yeah, pioneers are cool format

2:00:41 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
I when I was playing pioneer I

2:00:43 pm – Daniel Lee:
right now.

2:00:44 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
I completely down with you there. I am one of those troublesome only players in modern myself. Like I love that deck.

2:00:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay. Amulets are really cool deck. Like I know it’s it’s becomes the boogie man sometimes but alright, cool. That’s it’s 11. It’s a 11 clock here in Pacific time. So we’re gonna go ahead and wrap this up. I think a big thanks to David here for making making the time to talk to us and share some of your experiences. I hope this is, yeah, I hope this has

2:01:08 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Thanks for having me.

2:01:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
been a fruitful and useful experience for all you watching out there. And I hope you’ve got some some interesting things to think about and some some different things to study when it comes to the IPG. If you’re looking to work any competitive tournaments coming up David anything want to say before we before we take off here?

2:01:29 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Oh yeah, from my own revision. By the way, the thing that I spent the longest time reading was companion fixes, I’m not gonna go into it because it’s real complicated. Just read it and think about it a lot because it’s that the hard,

2:01:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
yeah for sure and companions are definitely present in modern there’s there are quite a few, there was some kahiras there was a fair amount of eurions there was

2:01:50 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
sudden lack of lyrices, which is nice but

2:01:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, right.

2:01:55 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Doesn’t. Yeah I saw quite a lot of different ones. There’s one of the things that we also mentioned again just at the Our announcements We’re like Hey this is a paper tournament. You don’t get to like put your companion in a special gold box when your deck building you have to tell your opponent about it. Like if they don’t know about it, if

2:02:10 pm – Daniel Lee:

2:02:11 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
they haven’t any excuse for not knowing about it, you don’t have a companion.

2:02:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep, turns out not having a companion. Also legal.

2:02:19 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:

2:02:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. All right, cool, thanks. Thanks very much for your time, David. And thank you all for tuning in. I again, if you if you’re interested in hearing about him about melee, I highly recommend tuning in for our first week tomorrow. I believe that’s at 4 pm Pacific time and Thank you very much for watching and y’all have a great day and enjoy your rest of your week.

2:02:42 pm – David Lyford-Tilley:
Take care.