Judge Academy > Transcript – October First Week: Casting a Spell w/ Hank Weist

Transcript – October First Week: Casting a Spell w/ Hank Weist

3:01:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hello and Welcome to First Week for October. Today’s Monday, October 3rd, we’re gonna start off with our guest from Erie, Pennsylvania, Hank Weist.

3:01:16 pm – Hank Wiest:
Hi there.

3:01:17 pm – Daniel Lee:
So Hank is a good friend of mine. We worked a number of events together and I reached out Tim to see if he’d be, if he had some rules of knowledge to share with us Hank, how about you go ahead and introduce yourself to the tour viewers?

3:01:30 pm – Hank Wiest:
Well, as you said, I’m Hank, Wiest pronouns. He him from Erie. Pennsylvania, I started chip playing pretty regularly. In 2011, Pay came Rules advisor in 2013 back when that was still a thing. Although, I guess is a thing again.

3:01:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
It is, yeah.

3:01:49 pm – Hank Wiest:
L1, and 2015, L2 and 2017. And for a time, I was area, captain for Western Pennsylvania. Again, back, when that was a thing.

3:01:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right on.

3:02:00 pm – Hank Wiest:
So the the joke that a lot of the judges especially down in Pittsburgh have, is that I was a king in the North.

3:02:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
Excellent.

3:02:07 pm – Hank Wiest:
At least, at least for western Pennsylvania.

3:02:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
You mentioned that because my guests It’s funny. on Wednesday also had the title King in the North because it’s Rob McKenzie. So that’s got a whole lot of kings in the north around here. So Winterfell is well, taking care of is what I’m hearing.

3:02:23 pm – Hank Wiest:
I would say so yes.

3:02:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, for sure. Also, just another fun fact about today. Today’s October 3rd, it’s my birthday.

3:02:30 pm – Hank Wiest:
Happy birthday about that.

3:02:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
This is kind of fun. Thanks very much.

3:02:33 pm – Hank Wiest:
And you, you also share a birthday with the maiden flight of the space. Shuttle Atlantis.

3:02:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
I did know that I actually didn’t know that before, but I learned that now it’s kind of funny because I was born in 1986 and so, normally, I think back to like, oh, what things happen in 86 and I get Challenger and Chernobyl. So, so knowing, so knowing that I’ve

3:02:49 pm – Hank Wiest:
Oh, oh no.

3:02:51 pm – Daniel Lee:
got that, I’ve got a good, I could association. It’s helpful here. All right. So so I invited Hank on here and we’re gonna talk about casting and resolving spells. So these are a number of the number of very complicated processes with a lot of details into it. And it’s a great example of one of the things that we as judges find, when we’re like learning the rules and whatnot, training ourselves to be at a point where we can, you know, Judge a magic tournament, is that there are these processes that players think are pretty simple. Oh, I have to cast a spell. So, I just like do what the spell says and pay cost and whatnot, but the actual step by step process that the game has to go through to account for all the various mechanics. Well not it’s actually really involved. And has a lot of details to it. So Hank here is gonna help help us walk through that. So we ready to die. Then hanks anything you want to say before we jump in.

3:03:43 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah. Um, so I actually made this, I’m gonna be using a presentation that I give a judge conferences, kind of like a framework for discussion, not necessarily presentation in and of

3:03:52 pm – Daniel Lee:
Sure.

3:03:54 pm – Hank Wiest:
itself. But the reason that I made this was because when I was expressed interest in L2, Joe Sweeney State, the very first question, he asked me when I express interest in L2 was what are the steps of casting a spell? and I blanked it was just like it’s

3:04:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:04:12 pm – Hank Wiest:
just like up. Tap lands. Put card on table he’s like, no.

3:04:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
I’m sure, I’m sure there’s also some

3:04:22 pm – Hank Wiest:
So

3:04:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
amount of like being put on the spot there as well too.

3:04:27 pm – Hank Wiest:
well sure, but it’s it’s very it was a rather amusing thing situation and

3:04:28 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:04:34 pm – Hank Wiest:
one that I like repeating with people who tell me they’re interested in judging. So,

3:04:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
Fair enough.

3:04:39 pm – Hank Wiest:
So, yeah, because like, the average player is not gonna need to know anything more than tap lands, put card on table.

3:04:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
For sure.

3:04:49 pm – Hank Wiest:
but there are a number of effects that That happened during the the process that are really interesting. So, Most people like a lot of like a lot of players they’re not going to know that they’re actually seven distinct steps in casting the spell they’ll because like I said I thought it was three when I first started but

3:05:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Now they’re not, not only are they not gonna know which seven? But even if you were to tell them which seven, I doubt they could put them in order properly.

3:05:18 pm – Hank Wiest:
It’s it’s layers, put 2.0, I guess, but

3:05:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh no. We’re trying to make this more accessible. Not less.

3:05:26 pm – Hank Wiest:
Well, hey, I didn’t include banding.

3:05:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
Fair. That’s combat. I’m gonna talk about that at some point. Yeah, any who

3:05:33 pm – Hank Wiest:
But anyway, as for the steps, for casting a spell, a lot of people do have it, right? It’s just they put the card in the table that’s announcing the card and putting it on the stack, you move that from wherever it happens to be most commonly your hand and it’s gonna be get, put on the stack.

3:05:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, and it’s and it’s interesting too, because there’s a lot of like because there’s a lot of like really Yeah. too, because there’s a lot of like because there’s a lot of like really announce it and put it on the stack where that answers the question by itself. Like so just even just knowing that the very first thing that happens is it’s I’m putting it onto the stack from wherever it is like answers a lot of questions so I’m thinking

3:06:12 pm – Hank Wiest:
it’s like,

3:06:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
things like so Phil collects like tormenting voice as initial costs discard a card for me hand it’s like Can I just card itself to pay its own costs? It’s like well no because the first thing you do is you take it out of your hand

3:06:23 pm – Hank Wiest:
It’s no longer in that zone.

3:06:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
Exactly. Yeah.

3:06:26 pm – Hank Wiest:
So yeah, second thing is choose modes. That’s it. That’s, that’s a generalization. There are a lot of things chosen in this step and we’ll go into that, we’ll go into that more when we get

3:06:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
Sure.

3:06:38 pm – Hank Wiest:
to the addict rule, slide choose

3:06:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay.

3:06:41 pm – Hank Wiest:
targets.

3:06:42 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay.

3:06:43 pm – Hank Wiest:
because weirdly enough targets is not one of the things is chosen, when modes are selected

3:06:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah it’s one one and it makes and this makes some amount of sense too. When you’re thinking something like cryptic command, you need to know what modes you’re using before. You can know what targets to pick,

3:06:55 pm – Hank Wiest:
Because some of them target in some of them. Don’t, we’ll get to that in a bit.

3:06:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
Exactly.

3:06:58 pm – Hank Wiest:
I have a really And I have a really annoying card for

3:06:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, for sure.

3:07:00 pm – Hank Wiest:
this one.

3:07:02 pm – Daniel Lee:
Excellent.

3:07:02 pm – Hank Wiest:
Um how the targets are affected. This mostly applies to like spreading out effects arc lightning as my go-to

3:07:08 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hmm.

3:07:08 pm – Hank Wiest:
example it’s just like you have three damage spread that however you want.

3:07:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right? So you got to pick, you got to pick

3:07:14 pm – Hank Wiest:
Exactly, then you’re

3:07:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
how, it’s how that damage is being divided.

3:07:17 pm – Hank Wiest:
Then you’re going to total the costs.

3:07:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay.

3:07:20 pm – Hank Wiest:
After that activate Mana abilities players always tap their lands first, but they can do it here too. I like, Okay, Casey I players know this but that I don’t think anyone else.

3:07:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hey, oh man, we can and we can take a moment when we get there because this is just an overview. We’re gonna get into the nitty-gritty of each bits of these.

3:07:42 pm – Hank Wiest:
Wait, wait, is Casey?

3:07:43 pm – Daniel Lee:
But But when we get there, we can

3:07:44 pm – Hank Wiest:
I still have thing.

3:07:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
actually talk about like what made

3:07:45 pm – Hank Wiest:
No, that got banned.

3:07:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
Kci want to do that. It’s a very specific. Huh.

3:07:50 pm – Hank Wiest:
It is, yes.

3:07:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
The deck is not still a thing if they get band, but there it’s an But there it’s an interesting

3:07:54 pm – Hank Wiest:
Then you pay the costs and that’s

3:07:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
interaction. I think really talked about. Yeah. So,

3:07:57 pm – Hank Wiest:
seven. So after that, the spell is cast the

3:07:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
All right.

3:08:00 pm – Hank Wiest:
mnemonic that I learned for this one is all crazy teenagers. Have tried magic pills, It’s it’s a little dated. I’d like to come up with a new one

3:08:08 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:08:09 pm – Hank Wiest:
But But if you anyone has any suggestions, I’m all ears as it stands. That one works for now.

3:08:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, if you’ve to the viewers, if

3:08:15 pm – Hank Wiest:
But

3:08:17 pm – Daniel Lee:
you’ve heard a different mnemonic heard a different mnemonic mnemonic subscribe, I’ll go ahead and toss it I’ll go ahead and toss it in If you’ve to the viewers, if you’ve mnemonic device for remembering device for remembering subscribe, in the chat.

3:08:34 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah, like like I said, it this

3:08:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
So for sure.

3:08:36 pm – Hank Wiest:
thing here is a is a relic of and older era and mostly used here out of necessity. I’m I’m well I’m more than open to suggestions on some replacements.

3:08:46 pm – Daniel Lee:
For sure it and you’re not the first

3:08:48 pm – Hank Wiest:
so,

3:08:48 pm – Daniel Lee:
person. I’ve heard it from like I heard that one as well. It’s just like, it’d be kind of nice if we could get away.

3:08:52 pm – Hank Wiest:
Oh yeah. I got that from other judges too. So

3:08:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
I mean heck we could even go have tried mushroom pizza, there you go. Crazy teenagers and their mushroom pizzas.

3:09:03 pm – Hank Wiest:
Mushroom pizza anyway. So let, um, let’s get into the steps as Oh right, I forgot about that. So there’s a break in these steps because after you choose how targets are affected the game is going to check to see that what you’ve proposed is, in fact, legal.

3:09:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay.

3:09:25 pm – Hank Wiest:
So if it’s not legal, if what if you’re proposing an illegal action, the game is going to revert to a to the last legal game state. So what I like to do is I like to divide these seven steps into two sections proposal and payment the

3:09:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay.

3:09:38 pm – Hank Wiest:
last three being, you know, the payment because you know you’re totaling the cost activating abilities and paying thing stuff.

3:09:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
okay, so it’s all the like, all the

3:09:45 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah.

3:09:46 pm – Daniel Lee:
kind of like spell setup stuff, which you’re calling the proposal where, that’s your announce modes targets, how the targets are affected. And then the costs bit which is total cost factory, man abilities, then pay your costs.

3:09:57 pm – Hank Wiest:
To use the grocery store analogy. The the first four you shopping, and then the last three are at the checkout line.

3:10:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
There you go, that’s a great analogy. Yeah, that makes sense.

3:10:03 pm – Hank Wiest:
So, so yeah.

3:10:06 pm – Daniel Lee:
We did get. We did get one suggestion here from the from the from the chat. Because if you look at the first letters of that last slide, it’s a C C C. And then tap So it’s just like Hey that’s super easy to remember. Thanks for that activity. And that was that’s, that’s a good.

3:10:24 pm – Hank Wiest:
Oh, right, let’s see this.

3:10:27 pm – Daniel Lee:
Breakfast, AC c. And then tap tap right.

3:10:33 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah.

3:10:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:10:34 pm – Hank Wiest:
Acc tap yeah.

3:10:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
There you go.

3:10:38 pm – Hank Wiest:
Night. I like it. Okay, that this thing’s being a bit weird for me. Okay next late. There we go. All righty.

3:10:42 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep, cool.

3:10:43 pm – Hank Wiest:
So So announcing the spell Visual joke.

3:10:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, I get it. I was just like it’s I’m confused. That’s just an enchantment. It doesn’t have anything. Oh, it’s announcement. It’s wedding announcement. I got there.

3:10:57 pm – Hank Wiest:
I I like I like visual jokes and

3:10:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
I got there. Must be

3:10:59 pm – Hank Wiest:
puns, so the very first thing you’re going going to do is you’re going to be the spell from wherever it is to the to the stack, not gonna be that zone anymore. puns, so the very first thing you’re going to do is you’re going to be moving the spell from wherever it is to the stack. Not gonna be that zone anymore.

3:11:06 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay.

3:11:07 pm – Hank Wiest:
There’s in your hand, it’s not in your hand. It was in the graveyard, not in the graveyard. It was in your library for some reason. It’s not there anymore.

3:11:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
You can cast pain glacial worm while you’re searching your library.

3:11:17 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes, you can. I had that?

3:11:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, that’s

3:11:19 pm – Hank Wiest:
I had I had that in a judge tower once nobody liked it.

3:11:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
See the problem, the problem there is because the rules of Judge Tower, it’s not that you can cast it while See the problem. because the rules of Judge Tower, rules of Judge Tower, it’s not that you can cast it while

3:11:32 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yep. Yep.

3:11:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, that is rude though because then the only way you missed getting a point. There is if you actually look like all right I have I’m searching. Is there a penguation for me?

3:11:44 pm – Hank Wiest:
I don’t have it in there anymore, but

3:11:46 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay, that’s kind of you. Thank you.

3:11:49 pm – Hank Wiest:
So anyway the object that you’re announcing is going to become the top. Most object on the stack I say object Because activating abilities works in a very similar way to casting spells.

3:11:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
Sure.

3:11:59 pm – Hank Wiest:
It’s just that there’s not a physical object to represent the actual ability unlike with cards.

3:12:05 pm – Daniel Lee:
There are some there are also some effects nowadays that are they like refer to a card and exile they’ll say copy it and cast to the copy.

3:12:12 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah.

3:12:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
So in that case, it also it’s the top most object. Even though it’s a copy of a spell, it’s not represented by a card.

3:12:19 pm – Hank Wiest:
Exactly, yeah. So that’s that’s the reason for the terminology there.

3:12:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
so, Sure.

3:12:24 pm – Hank Wiest:
so until the spell becomes cast and no player, receives priority again exceptions, because they exist paying glacial worm, the expertise cycle but And then anything that triggers on spells being cast, those are gonna wait until after all of this is done, once this bell becomes cast, then state base actions are gonna get checked. Triggers are gonna happen.

3:12:46 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:12:48 pm – Hank Wiest:
We’ll deal with things as when they happen there. So that’s the announce part of the spell, choosing modes. Like I said, there are a bunch of these modes of a modal spell crypto command is my go-to here because well, I hope everyone and knows what it does. I think the joke is that no one does, that’s why the Texas one was so annoying.

3:13:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, it’s um, I’ve been amusing story about cryptic man that I can get to in a minute. But go ahead and continue.

3:13:16 pm – Hank Wiest:
So you’re gonna choose the the modes of the of the spell notably, you’re not going to choose targets just yet that’s gonna wait and until the next step. Uh, value of variables. So anything with an x in its cost, brain geyser and bane fire for are good examples, there

3:13:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay.

3:13:37 pm – Hank Wiest:
See.

3:13:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
It’s a, it’s notable that that specific. So when it comes to choosing values of x, it’s you’re choosing it unless the value is specified, specific. specific. So when it comes to choosing values of x, it’s you’re choosing it. Unless the value is specified, somewhere in the text or something. Like x is the x is the number of

3:13:48 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes.

3:13:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
creatures. You control or something like that.

3:13:52 pm – Hank Wiest:
It. Yes. Yes. like this one here, the It. Yes. Yes. But or and you have like, uncards like this one here, the ultimate The ultimate nightmare

3:13:56 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, ultimate not.

3:13:58 pm – Hank Wiest:
Nightmare. You choose X, Y, and Z.

3:14:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
Excellent.

3:14:01 pm – Hank Wiest:
Which is pretty hilarious. I don’t think that number works anymore but

3:14:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
Well, it’s I I agree. I also think that does not work anymore. However, it’s really funny because I actually, like, thought about this card I was like, Is this card good? And the answer is No, it is not the card is actually just very bad unless you have like a big mana situation where you’re like, Yeah, no, I’m in a multiplayer game. So I want to like kill your two creatures and then like target these two players and I want to do five damage, all of them that spells gonna cost like what nine mana or something. It’s like Okay, sure.

3:14:34 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah. Yeah.

3:14:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:14:37 pm – Hank Wiest:
And then, as you know, if, if you have spells with like, XX on, you’re gonna be choosing that your X has to be the same. In each of those cases.

3:14:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right pressure.

3:14:45 pm – Hank Wiest:
You can’t, like, pick You can’t, like, pick different varios before. That’s why the XYZ thing works there because you can choose different things.

3:14:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
There was definitely a point where I want to say it was when they, I think it’s the beat down the beatdown box set version of fireball is actually XY red.

3:14:58 pm – Hank Wiest:
Really.

3:14:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
And and yeah, so it’s and so the text reads because for fireball, you have to pay one mana for each target beyond the first and then it’s x

3:15:05 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah.

3:15:06 pm – Daniel Lee:
damage. So it was it deals x damage to do divided.

3:15:11 pm – Hank Wiest:
Right. Rounded down.

3:15:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, divided evenly, rounded down to each of y plus one target creatures or players.

3:15:18 pm – Hank Wiest:
Woof.

3:15:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
yeah, so it was like,

3:15:20 pm – Hank Wiest:
That is.

3:15:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
It was. One attempt at templating and annoyingly designed card. That’s what it that way.

3:15:29 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah, I can see why they scrap that one.

3:15:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah but it does exist. Yeah, you can say it should be visible and get her to

3:15:34 pm – Hank Wiest:
Now, I kind of want to get that card but

3:15:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
It’s the beat on box. That’s not hard to get a hold of. I can’t imagine it’s expensive.

3:15:40 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah, but anyway, we go down to additional costs.

3:15:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay.

3:15:45 pm – Hank Wiest:
This would be like, kicker and Bible actually, let’s face it. All mechanics are just copies of kicker.

3:15:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. That’s a good job. Yeah. And these things are usually going to be listed off as additional costs, right? So, and these are

3:15:57 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah, like, like goblin grenade as an additional cost of cast, sacrifice a goblin or kicker.

3:16:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
No, right. But here here’s specifically because we’re talking about choosing modes. These are optional additional costs.

3:16:06 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes, yes.

3:16:08 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:16:10 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah, mandatory additional cost. Those are gonna get handled later. So

3:16:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, for sure.

3:16:15 pm – Hank Wiest:
You’re going to choose alternate costs. Force of well-being. The the go to because I like legacy.

3:16:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
Fair enough? Yeah.

3:16:23 pm – Hank Wiest:
Worth mentioning. Is that only one alternate cost can be paid? I’ve gotten several questions about. Oh God, what’s a good example?

3:16:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
Mm-hmm. I can give you one so if you’re trying to cast a spell with

3:16:33 pm – Hank Wiest:
Oh,

3:16:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
flashback, for example, if you’re trying to, if you’re force of will in your graveyard has gained flashback, then you cannot cast it for its pitch cost from your graveyard.

3:16:44 pm – Hank Wiest:
Ah, yes.

3:16:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:16:46 pm – Hank Wiest:
There we go. That’s a good one.

3:16:46 pm – Daniel Lee:
So yeah.

3:16:47 pm – Hank Wiest:
That’s good. I think I have another one in the in the Question section. But yeah, like I said, only one

3:16:52 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay.

3:16:54 pm – Hank Wiest:
alternate cost can be chosen because

3:16:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
For sure.

3:16:55 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah, so how hybrid, and or Forexion mana will be paid so kitchen? So kitchen?

3:17:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay.

3:17:02 pm – Hank Wiest:
Finks here, you’re choose whether well, you’re gonna pay one colorless regard. Well one, generic regardless. But as for the green white symbol, you’re going to choose how you’re gonna pay that, you’re gonna choose, if you’re gonna pay a green or a white. So, basically, kitchen, Phoenix is either gonna cost one green green, one, white or one green white and

3:17:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep.

3:17:20 pm – Hank Wiest:
then with those scare across and shadow more, you can choose to pay two colorless or a little too generic or a color.

3:17:26 pm – Daniel Lee:
Mm-hmm. Also, like the random spells like this, each the Queen is in there as well. Mm-hmm. Another like the random spells like this, each the Queen is in there as well.

3:17:31 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah.

3:17:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
For, for the hybrid, generic and

3:17:31 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah.

3:17:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
symbols. Yeah.

3:17:35 pm – Hank Wiest:
and then same thing with correction manner, you’re choosing, whether you’re paying two life or the mana,

3:17:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
Mm-hmm. Which is actually currently relevant to the the defilers that new cycle from Dominary United which has a like pseudo. Forexion mana thing here is also chosen here because because it’s

3:17:51 pm – Hank Wiest:
Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

3:17:52 pm – Daniel Lee:
saying, you’re as an additional cost, you’re paying the two life and then if you make that choice, then it’ll reduce the cost by one colored mana of that type.

3:18:02 pm – Hank Wiest:
Right. Yes.

3:18:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
So,

3:18:03 pm – Hank Wiest:
All righty. And then the last thing you’re choosing here is whether or not to splice onto arcane which I don’t think I have ever seen done in a game.

3:18:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
Ah, clearly you’re not watching nearly enough modern storm, then, thank you very much because we we

3:18:15 pm – Hank Wiest:
Probably not. No. But

3:18:17 pm – Daniel Lee:
play desperate ritual. And so, we’ll splice desperate ritual onto itself to get extra mana.

3:18:21 pm – Hank Wiest:
Oh, right storm, it all formats.

3:18:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
Storm all formats, hi there. Nice to meet you.

3:18:26 pm – Hank Wiest:
All right. So people might be asking Why are you choosing modes first. Well you brought it up earlier because some of the modes that you

3:18:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
That’s a good question.

3:18:33 pm – Hank Wiest:
have some of the modes you have in a card. Not all of them have target. So you need to know what the spell is doing before. You know what, it’s going to be affecting.

3:18:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right.

3:18:43 pm – Hank Wiest:
And then you have cards like this thing. This is an actual card that exists.

3:18:48 pm – Daniel Lee:
Target opponent chooses one you draw three cards or you choose and bury up to two target creatures that opponent controls in here, she draws up to three Okay.

3:18:57 pm – Hank Wiest:
That this is this is a unique case. This is the only card. I know of where the opponent chooses the mode.

3:19:05 pm – Daniel Lee:
Interesting. Okay.

3:19:06 pm – Hank Wiest:
This is this is an actual card that they made.

3:19:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay, so this is a I’m just trying to like understand so your opponent picks either you ancestral recall or you get to kill two of their creatures, and they ancestral recall.

3:19:19 pm – Hank Wiest:
Basically, yes.

3:19:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
Got it. Okay, that is a strange card.

3:19:24 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah.

3:19:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
Thanks alliances.

3:19:26 pm – Hank Wiest:
because you’re burying up to two target creatures, you need to know if

3:19:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right.

3:19:31 pm – Hank Wiest:
you’re using that mode or not, before you select the targets.

3:19:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Exactly. And then like crypto command all so like that could be a spell with zero one or two targets depending on which modes you pick.

3:19:40 pm – Hank Wiest:
Exactly. Yes.

3:19:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:19:41 pm – Hank Wiest:
So speaking of So speaking of targets, let’s go into So speaking of targets, let’s go into

3:19:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Sure.

3:19:46 pm – Hank Wiest:
So So you’re gonna be So you’re gonna be choosing targets that are legal at the time of casting obvious.

3:19:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay.

3:19:49 pm – Hank Wiest:
I know. But, you know, so not everyone knows that and we all start from nothing, so good to say it.

3:19:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
Fair enough. Yeah and well and I can see how someone could get confused. Where it’s like, Okay, I’m gonna target this. I I know it’s illegal, but then I’m gonna do something else before the spell resolves. Like, you could, you could like argue

3:20:07 pm – Hank Wiest:
Right. Yeah. So

3:20:08 pm – Daniel Lee:
yourself into a corner where you’re like. Yeah, I know that makes sense. One interesting thing here I will, I will mention this here just because we’re talking about legal targets

3:20:15 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah, go for it.

3:20:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
when you when you copy a spell let’s say they spell currently has an illegal target right? But you copy that spell. So the spell now also the copy of that spell also has an illegal target. It’s a creature with that has been given hex proof. Let’s say right.

3:20:30 pm – Hank Wiest:
Sure.

3:20:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
Then at the effect that lets you copy that. Well says, you may pick new targets for the copy because it says, May you don’t have to so you can leave it as the illegal target for whatever reason. Or you can change the target but if you do, you must pick a legal target.

3:20:46 pm – Hank Wiest:
Ah, there, yes.

3:20:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
Which feels inconsistent. But it’s it’s a little, like a little real weird rules trickery that has come up for me recently. That was really interesting where it’s like, okay, but the current targets illegal so I can change it to another illegal target, right? No, no, you can’t.

3:21:01 pm – Hank Wiest:
Ah, yeah.

3:21:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
It’s like, you can leave the illegal target, the same, or you can change

3:21:05 pm – Hank Wiest:
Pick a legal target.

3:21:05 pm – Daniel Lee:
it to a legal target, right? Exactly. so,

3:21:09 pm – Hank Wiest:
Uh, so anyway, variable numbers are targets. You’re gonna select how many, and what, here, again, arc lightning is the card I’d use for this just because it’s easy.

3:21:17 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep. I’m wondering if this has a note. Okay? So what I was going to mention is so some spells. All I think art lighting uses this uses this templating as well. They’ll say something like any number of targets.

3:21:29 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah, divided.

3:21:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
that’s like,

3:21:30 pm – Hank Wiest:
Oh, actually, no, I think as of Cons of Tark here are lightning was divided as you choose among up to

3:21:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
Up to three.

3:21:37 pm – Hank Wiest:
among one, two or three target creatures, indoor players.

3:21:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, interesting. Okay, that’s that is interesting. You know, so a lot of times stuff like that’ll be templated as among any number of targets, but with the stipulation that you have to do at least one of the thing to each target.

3:21:49 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes, and we’ll get to that in a And we’ll get to that in a minute,

3:21:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
You will okay. Well, that’s

3:21:51 pm – Hank Wiest:
but yeah.

3:21:51 pm – Daniel Lee:
Well, that’s what I wasn’t. Sure of

3:21:52 pm – Hank Wiest:
yeah, and then you can’t use the same target twice unless multiple instances of target are used

3:21:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
Seeds of strength being the go-to example of this.

3:22:00 pm – Hank Wiest:
seeds and strike being to go to example because it’s target creature gets plus one, plus one engine turn entire creature because possible until I turn yada

3:22:06 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. I love that kind so much.

3:22:08 pm – Hank Wiest:
Oh, what was, what was that one? It was like, I think it was kind of flame. It deals three damage to

3:22:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
Three damage to one thing two damage to another thing in one damage to a third thing.

3:22:17 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah.

3:22:17 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:22:18 pm – Hank Wiest:
Because, But because it specifies another, those have to be different things.

3:22:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. And the last one says, a third target thing. I think like to emphasize.

3:22:28 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes.

3:22:28 pm – Daniel Lee:
I want I want to say incremental growth and incremental blight would do the same thing.

3:22:32 pm – Hank Wiest:
I don’t have those on hand at the moment, but

3:22:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
That’s oh yeah, I’m not 100% sure. But I feel like those, those might like those those might have the same templating as well. That’s all. But I feel like those, those might like those those might have the same templating as well. That’s all. Yeah, I’m not 100% sure but I feel like those those might have the same templating as well.

3:22:38 pm – Hank Wiest:
yeah, and then And then abilities it.

3:22:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
But yeah, so so just be just to be super clear about this.

3:22:41 pm – Hank Wiest:
Oh yeah, going

3:22:43 pm – Daniel Lee:
The reason seeds of strength is, is templated this way, is because you can pick the same creature for all three targets, if you want.

3:22:50 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes.

3:22:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right? So like, it’s the, it’s the exception to the. You can only target a creature once on a spell. It’s like, you can target only once for each, instance, of the word target. So you could, if you had a spell that said target creature becomes blue until in return target creature, becomes black, until end of turn. You could use those onto different creatures or on the same creature because it says just just target

3:23:09 pm – Hank Wiest:
Exactly.

3:23:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
creature each time.

3:23:13 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah.

3:23:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:23:14 pm – Hank Wiest:
And upon being targeted will trigger but they’re not going to get placed in the stack, just yet. Remember, this is everything’s gonna

3:23:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep.

3:23:20 pm – Hank Wiest:
Remember, this is everything’s gonna This is all this is done This is all this is done. Remember, this is everything’s gonna Gold span dragons. wait until after all.

3:23:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yes.

3:23:25 pm – Hank Wiest:
The kind is the one that I use for the example there, although I think it doesn’t work like that in arena anymore.

3:23:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
It’s also been a very recently and go I was a big freaking deal on Arena to that. standard up until very recently because it rotated out. So

3:23:41 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes.

3:23:42 pm – Daniel Lee:
yeah.

3:23:42 pm – Hank Wiest:
So anyway, we’ve got that, we’ve got the targets. Now, how are we gonna affect these targets? Is my question.

3:23:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:23:48 pm – Hank Wiest:
So, you’re gonna shoot how the effects of divided among chosen targets. And each target must receive at least one of whatever is being divided.

3:23:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
There it is. So there is a, there’s a small

3:23:56 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah.

3:23:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
there’s a slight exception to this and that is stuff.

3:23:59 pm – Hank Wiest:
Oh yeah.

3:24:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
That is the divided evenly.

3:24:00 pm – Hank Wiest:
Go for it.

3:24:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
And so things like fireball.

3:24:03 pm – Hank Wiest:
Ah, yes.

3:24:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
So if I fireball two creatures, let’s say and I’m gonna deal five damage. I so, I cast my fireball X equals 5 and then I pay one extra to get the one extra target. I’m targeting two creatures. And so fireball says, it’s divine, it does. The damage divided evenly rounded down among those targets those things

3:24:21 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes.

3:24:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
Those things are not going to determine what they’re doing until the spell resolves.

3:24:27 pm – Hank Wiest:
Okay.

3:24:27 pm – Daniel Lee:
Those are also very uncommon. The vast majority of spells are gonna be like art lightning where you have to divide it. You’re specifying exactly how much is going. Basically if it says divided as you choose, this is where you choose Right.

3:24:39 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah, and so

3:24:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:24:41 pm – Hank Wiest:
And so, And so, um, one of the things that I, that I use in as an example, is, if your opponent has four, let’s say Fantasmal bears, you can’t target all four of them with arc lightning and then wipe them out.

3:24:51 pm – Daniel Lee:
Exactly.

3:24:51 pm – Hank Wiest:
imagine that enough mana, you could do that with Fireball but

3:24:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
You could do that with fireball the yes, because all you have to do you. I don’t even think you’d have to pay X. Equals X could be zero in that case. Because because it’s divided evenly,

3:25:03 pm – Hank Wiest:
yeah, it’s just like

3:25:06 pm – Daniel Lee:
right? So, I’m pretty sure.

3:25:07 pm – Hank Wiest:
Divided evenly rounded down. Yeah.

3:25:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, so it’s so there’s no specific

3:25:10 pm – Hank Wiest:
Just target them.

3:25:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
rule of you have to do at least one to everything. Yeah. Whereas if it was something like

3:25:14 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah.

3:25:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
there’s a different version. I want to say it’s pyrokinesis or something like that. Where it’s an excess divided as you

3:25:19 pm – Hank Wiest:
Oh, that’s

3:25:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
choose.

3:25:22 pm – Hank Wiest:
Is that the?

3:25:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
That might be the pitch one.

3:25:23 pm – Hank Wiest:
No, I’m

3:25:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
I might be a different guy. That’s okay, it’s not a big deal.

3:25:25 pm – Hank Wiest:
I’m thinking of gorilla tactics for some reason, but no.

3:25:28 pm – Daniel Lee:
That’s yeah no no so it’s the but yeah if you if you are dividing as you choose you do have to do at least one to everything that includes

3:25:37 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah.

3:25:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
that includes determining what your value of X has to be as well.

3:25:39 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes.

3:25:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
If you’ve got multiple targets,

3:25:41 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah, so if you have two, if you have

3:25:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
so,

3:25:43 pm – Hank Wiest:
two targets for arc, lightning one of them is going to be getting one and the other one’s gonna give it. You getting two, you can’t. Do it any other way than that? So if a choice becomes illegal after casting, you don’t get to redistribute this effect. So if you are dealing, if you’re

3:25:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh yeah.

3:25:58 pm – Hank Wiest:
dealing one damage to a one, one and two damage to a tutu and then they give their tutu, hexproof for what It’s still gonna deal the one damage not. to the one one. But you, you just lose the other two damage, you know, you don’t get to

3:26:08 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep, for sure.

3:26:09 pm – Hank Wiest:
throw that anywhere else.

3:26:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, whereas fireball is again an exception to this divided evenly rounded down. So it’s only going to do damage to the things it can and then it’s going to determine that on resolution. Oh, okay. You’ve only got these targets, I’m gonna do. So if in the scenario where it’s like five to each two creatures and one of them like it’s bounced or something, it’s gonna do all five to the remaining one.

3:26:29 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes.

3:26:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
But again, fireballs an exception, most things don’t work like that.

3:26:33 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah, fireballs. A very fun and weird spell.

3:26:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
Powerball is a weird one.

3:26:36 pm – Hank Wiest:
so at this point, the game is going to check to make sure that all choices made or legal and if not the game is going to revert to before the spell was announced and I we were talking beforehand but you had a very interesting thing about Squee and Excelon’s binding regarding this

3:26:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. So um so when so this is the new squee, I forget what a subtitle is, but the squee that was printed in dominaria not dominator United

3:26:59 pm – Hank Wiest:
that’s,

3:27:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
dominaria.

3:27:00 pm – Hank Wiest:
That’s Squee the Immortal.

3:27:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
Squeeze the immortal. There we go. So the the meaningful text on Squee

3:27:02 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes.

3:27:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
is squeak, can be cast from your graveyard, or exile. So excellons binding is an enchantment that says exile. Target might be target. Non-land permanent. And then your opponents can’t cast spells with the same name as the exile permanent. So at one point there was a rule, the rule said that, you can cast things as long as you had something telling you that you could cast that This meant that you could announce squee that has been exile, by excellence. Finding you could announce it. And by the time, the game checked legality at this point to see if the proposed. Well, was okay. It will look back and excellence. Binding wouldn’t refer to any exiled card. This is not there anymore. So you’d actually be able to cast the squee even though Exxon’s binding says, You can’t do that. So that was unintended and they did actually fix that loophole. The, the rule now says, as long as you, there’s an ability that lets you cast the spell and no ability or no effects are preventing you from casting the spell. so, it’s like,

3:27:59 pm – Hank Wiest:
yeah, like

3:28:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
Like, you expected it to work in the first place.

3:28:03 pm – Hank Wiest:
I get why they did it but it was still a flavor when this.

3:28:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, right. Exactly.

3:28:11 pm – Hank Wiest:
We can’t We can’t get where you can’t get rid

3:28:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep.

3:28:19 pm – Hank Wiest:
proposal segment of the, The Steps. So, anyway, we’ve gotten through the

3:28:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
Sure.

3:28:30 pm – Hank Wiest:
Onto the payment. I like to think of this, as kind of

3:28:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hey.

3:28:38 pm – Hank Wiest:
like paying for like a grocery store. It kind of falls apart with the alternate cost but just bear with me

3:28:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Five and five, and a red. Yeah.

3:28:57 pm – Hank Wiest:
because you know, the base cost is

3:28:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
So it’s it’s helpful here. It’s just because you use bane fire as an example that if you’re using an

3:29:02 pm – Hank Wiest:
how much it costs, any additional

3:29:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
alternate cost on a spell with an X in its normal mana cost. That’s and the alternate cost also does not have an x in it somewhere.

3:29:13 pm – Hank Wiest:
costs? Those are gonna be the tax cost,

3:29:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
Then that x must be zero. Yeah, so like so

3:29:19 pm – Hank Wiest:
reductions those gonna reductions those gonna be like any

3:29:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
So like so

3:29:22 pm – Hank Wiest:
coupons you have coupons you have and then it falls

3:29:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep. And Fist of the sons is another good example where it’s like, I’m paying

3:29:29 pm – Hank Wiest:
falls apart again at the end.

3:29:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
white blue black red green instead of

3:29:30 pm – Hank Wiest:
But again

3:29:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
its mana cost so I don’t get to just pick X equals 10 million for my bane fire. No, and that X has to be zero. If you’re casting it for a cost, that doesn’t include an X. Yeah. Well, I’m sorry. But also, I don’t want to get domed for 10 million, bane fires thanks. And those will and those will apply regardless of whether you’re casting for a base cost or an alternate cost. That’s why that’s why if you so you mentioned legacy, right? So like if I’m casting force of will under a thalia even for its alternate I still have to pay that extra one. Yes. Yep. For sure, for me. I’m thinking Goblin Electromancer and Barol chief of compliance. Hashtag terminal formats.

3:30:28 pm – Hank Wiest:
#storm at all formats, then it is going to go to effects that Set what you pay to a specific value.

3:30:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
So trinosphere.

3:30:39 pm – Hank Wiest:
Tranosphere. Because there’s only one thing that does that. Oh yeah. Before we get to that it’s, it’s cost. Can’t be reduced to less than zero. I am fish.

3:30:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
What’s one of those things where like

3:30:48 pm – Hank Wiest:
I’m envisioning a very like a, like a future unset where they do. I have like you get Mana back if you reduce the cost to less than zero. But

3:30:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
That’s just so.

3:30:59 pm – Hank Wiest:
I don’t really want to put that evil into the universe.

3:31:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
It’s just so easy to break is the problem. Like you just, there’s no way that that would be fair, there isn’t

3:31:07 pm – Hank Wiest:
I mean unset.

3:31:08 pm – Daniel Lee:
As.

3:31:08 pm – Hank Wiest:
So

3:31:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, I guess right. Exactly unset, where you have mox? Lotus attached for infinite mana. Literally infinite mana. All right. Sure.

3:31:16 pm – Hank Wiest:
and then, of course, like I said, Transphere like I said, technically

3:31:17 pm – Daniel Lee:
Trying to sphere. Yeah.

3:31:19 pm – Hank Wiest:
this effect is affects that set to a specific value but Trinity is the only one in the game that does it. So it’s transfer.

3:31:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah it’s and one thing is relevant for transfer. I suspect. We’re gonna talk about in a minute here but Trinosphere is a big deal specifically because there are certain abilities that spells can have that. Don’t work well with trinosphere and there’s certain ones that do work well with trinosphere when it comes to like, so delve. For example, used to be you would exile some number of cards from your grave out and it would reduce the mana cost by so much trynosphere would then say, Okay, well it’s gonna cost at least three but nowadays

3:31:58 pm – Hank Wiest:
Can vocal work the same way.

3:31:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
Huh, could vote exactly right?

3:32:01 pm – Hank Wiest:
Invoke used to work the same way.

3:32:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
Exactly.

3:32:02 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah.

3:32:02 pm – Daniel Lee:
Now both convoke and delve are have been updated so they say, Doing this So they say, Doing this pays for one we’re dealing at the word at the the word at the point of paying costs. Not at the point of determining total cost. It’s very different effect mostly for pays for one which at that point we’re dealing at the word at the the word at the point of paying costs. cost. It’s very different effect mostly for mostly with regards to

3:32:17 pm – Hank Wiest:
Exactly. And

3:32:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
specifically.

3:32:21 pm – Hank Wiest:
yeah, Trisphere does make Forexion man, a very, very sad. So if you’re casting if you’re casting dismember for a Amana and

3:32:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yes, it does.

3:32:30 pm – Hank Wiest:
life, you’re still going to be paying three mana and also the four life

3:32:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep, because that choice was made a

3:32:34 pm – Hank Wiest:
although,

3:32:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
long time ago back in the proposal

3:32:36 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes, yes.

3:32:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
step. Yeah.

3:32:40 pm – Hank Wiest:
So at this point the cost is locked the like anything that happens after this point. The game is not gonna look forward. And and say, it’s like, Oh wait, we’re gonna change that now? No, no. If you if you find a way to get around, trinosphere shenanigans. Good on you, that card’s annoying. Anyway, so

3:32:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
yeah, so I that makes a lot more sense because Omnitel player Yeah.

3:33:04 pm – Hank Wiest:
Omnitel player. Yes and also I mentioned storm

3:33:06 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, exactly. For absolutely

3:33:07 pm – Hank Wiest:
player. So anyway, then activate Mana abilities. Players typically do this first,

3:33:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
Well. Yeah.

3:33:16 pm – Hank Wiest:
they’ll they’ll tap up they’ll tap all their lands and they’ll put their card down, but you do have an opportunity to do this now. One of the things that I do in the presentation as I go over, what exactly a mana ability is.

3:33:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep.

3:33:34 pm – Hank Wiest:
Um, namely it’s and ability that

3:33:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
I think you missed one in there.

3:33:38 pm – Hank Wiest:
produces mana on resolution doesn’t use the stack and is not a

3:33:42 pm – Daniel Lee:
There you go. Yeah, this is why I death right Shaman is not a man ability for

3:33:44 pm – Hank Wiest:
ability.

3:33:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
example. Yeah. Yeah, there you go. You got it.

3:33:51 pm – Hank Wiest:
I did miss one. I’m there I think just trying to oh yeah, they don’t have a target. Yes. I knew it was in there somewhere. So anyway, usually like I said, players gonna do these far far earlier, but this is the last chance you have to activate them. When one of the questions that I have, when I give this as a presentation is, can you activate Lions Eye Diamond? At this point?

3:34:06 pm – Daniel Lee:
See, it’s it. You You helped your argument there by using the The Vintage Masters version instead of the original Mirage version because that one says he uses a manasaurs

3:34:16 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah, I know. But I didn’t want to be too mean, you know,

3:34:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s why it says only a time actually there’s an interesting one Here. Arbor Elf is one that folks don’t think about as being like no no you have to because it’s tap on tap target forest.

3:34:32 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah.

3:34:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
It’s not a man ability, it’s simply.

3:34:34 pm – Hank Wiest:
Because it has a target.

3:34:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
Because it has a target and it doesn’t itself ad mana, it just

3:34:38 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah.

3:34:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
It just It just It just untapped your forest. So like sometimes folks will be like, Okay, I’m like an announce this and then they’ll get active, Amanda abilities and they’ll use their arbor elf then. And it’s one of those things where you can probably just call out of order sequencing and it’s fine because it doesn’t actually like affect anything. And if someone wants to respond, then that’s fine. You just gave him more information but like it’s one of those things where it’s Good to keep an eye out for and make sure that if someone is trying to do, technically, correct, play that there are very specific things account. As mana abilities armor elf lines. A diamond are don’t aren’t one of them.

3:35:08 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah, exactly.

3:35:08 pm – Daniel Lee:
Well, so, Sorry, it’s worth mentioning lines. I diamond is a mana ability but

3:35:12 pm – Hank Wiest:
Just one with a very odd restriction

3:35:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
Timing restriction.

3:35:15 pm – Hank Wiest:
on it.

3:35:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yes for it. Yes.

3:35:18 pm – Hank Wiest:
Uh, so like I said, if the spell that you’re casting requires, no mana. This debt is skipped.

3:35:26 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:35:26 pm – Hank Wiest:
so, if you somehow reduce the cost of your spell to zero, you don’t get a chance to activate an abilities that just get

3:35:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
That’s interesting. Is that, is that a new thing? I’m not sure. I was aware of that.

3:35:37 pm – Hank Wiest:
I’m not entirely sure how new it is, but when I was doing my research for this, it was like, I’m I don’t know if they’ve changed it. I’m open to corrections if they have, but

3:35:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
Interesting.

3:35:47 pm – Hank Wiest:
I’d have to check the CR again.

3:35:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
So the only reason I ask when we were talking before we started we talked about Cart Clan, Iron works, the Kci deck, right? And

3:35:56 pm – Hank Wiest:
Hence, the more mana can be generated than needed.

3:35:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Exactly. But the, but it’s interesting because I feel like the mana payment trickery that, that, that tried to take advantage of sometimes they still tried to do it even when casting a spell that costs zero like they go, cast welding, jar, activate. These mana abilities I I could be remembering wrong but I thought so that’s, that’s interesting that that that’s in there. That’s the only reason I mentioned

3:36:19 pm – Hank Wiest:
Hmm.

3:36:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
it. So,

3:36:21 pm – Hank Wiest:
I I don’t recall them doing it with zero with like zero drop artifacts. I remember them doing it a lot with one drops.

3:36:26 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay. Yeah, fair enough. Okay, that’s in trouble.

3:36:28 pm – Hank Wiest:
Oh,

3:36:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
This is that’s a few years ago, too. So that’s like, I could just be remembering wrong.

3:36:33 pm – Hank Wiest:
And what is time. Anyway, so

3:36:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
What? Indeed times. The flat circle.

3:36:37 pm – Hank Wiest:
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly. So

3:36:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:36:41 pm – Hank Wiest:
So then we’re going to pay our costs.

3:36:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
Cool.

3:36:45 pm – Hank Wiest:
So, the cost can be paid in any order that you want. Caveat being that you can’t do a partial payment and you can’t pay unpayable costs that sounds obvious. But you know,

3:36:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
So useful thing when it comes to cost me paid in any order, you can do things like you can tap a creature for a convoke cost for a spell and then sacrifice it for a sacrifice cost to that spell, something like that. I think because tapping it for canvoke would be paid here, right? You tap, the creature to pay the one because you’re not activating a man ability.

3:37:18 pm – Hank Wiest:
You’re not? No.

3:37:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
Because you’re paying costs in any order. So if you have a mana cost that you’re paying,

3:37:24 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah, I I think there’s something with wild canter, but I I have a question about that.

3:37:28 pm – Daniel Lee:
So but that’s because the sacrifice

3:37:28 pm – Hank Wiest:
You know, like further here

3:37:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
for wild canter, you have to sacrifice that in the mana abilities portion.

3:37:33 pm – Hank Wiest:
Right.

3:37:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
So you had So you had to sacrifice So you had to sacrifice it first.

3:37:33 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes. Okay yeah.

3:37:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, that’s what it is as wild canter. But if you’re but if it’s a spell

3:37:36 pm – Hank Wiest:
Okay.

3:37:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
that’s like convoke. additional cost sacrifice a creature, you can tap a creature that’s like convoke. And also as an additional cost, sacrifice a creature, you can tap a creature to convoke it and then sacrifice the creature to the other

3:37:46 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes.

3:37:46 pm – Daniel Lee:
cost. cost. That’s yeah,

3:37:46 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes. Yes. Okay yep.

3:37:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
That’s yeah, that’s what I mean. That’s yeah, that’s what I mean.

3:37:47 pm – Hank Wiest:
We got there.

3:37:48 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Cannot serve double duty with a Cannot serve, double duty with a Unfortunately. Yeah, wild cancer. Cannot serve, double duty with a convoke spell, unfortunately. No. Used to be able to

3:37:51 pm – Hank Wiest:
No, it cannot.

3:37:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
No. Used to be able to before change convoke.

3:37:55 pm – Hank Wiest:
Up. Yeah. So anyway, delve canvoke.

3:37:56 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep.

3:37:57 pm – Hank Wiest:
An

3:37:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep. Absolutely.

3:38:00 pm – Hank Wiest:
About a bit delve and convoke used to be in the determined cost step and they would actually focus function as a cost reduction. But now they’re just a alternate way to pay mana.

3:38:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
Correct.

3:38:12 pm – Hank Wiest:
So after at this point after these costs are paid, the spell becomes cast. Uh, now all those triggers that have been waiting, they go on the stack,

3:38:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep, and

3:38:22 pm – Hank Wiest:
And then, if oh yeah, going.

3:38:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
An importantly because they go on stack in whatever order the active player says, If you had a if you had a trigger that said Whenever this becomes target spell ability so that triggered back in the proposal and then you had whenever you tap a creature for mana so that got triggered in man abilities. And then you also had whenever you sacrifice creature and you act right screechos. You can put those on the stack of whatever order you want. It does not have to be the order that they triggered.

3:38:47 pm – Hank Wiest:
Exactly, because they all go on the stack at the same time.

3:38:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
Correct.

3:38:50 pm – Hank Wiest:
Let’s see. And then, if the spells controller had priority prior to casting a spell, they receive it now, so,

3:38:56 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yes. Yeah, the person. Yeah. Whoever had priority gets it back.

3:39:00 pm – Hank Wiest:
okay, so what happens now?

3:39:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:39:02 pm – Hank Wiest:
So anyway once the spell becomes cast it’s gonna stay on the stack until it resolves is countered or is otherwise removed in the stack. Time stop. I lost a game of Judge Tower because

3:39:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:39:12 pm – Hank Wiest:
of this card.

3:39:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
Really.

3:39:14 pm – Hank Wiest:
I forgot that it exiled itself.

3:39:17 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh no. Okay, yes, it does. That’s true.

3:39:21 pm – Hank Wiest:
So once the spell starts to resolve the effects are going to happen in the order written on the card. So with cryptic command drawing a card is always going to be the last thing that you do.

3:39:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Yeah, there’s a really interesting thought, exercise. So this is a I think I can give a joke, klopchick Texas, Joe. I can give him the the credit for this one. So as they thought exercise of imagine for each possible pair of modes for cryptic commands. So there’s four modes you pick two of them. So there’s six different possibilities for each pair of modes, come up with a situation where the order of the modes matters, So I can give you a great example. So if the only two cards in my hand are cryptic command and demon fire. And I cast Demonfire hold priority and then cast cryptic command for counter Draw mode counter Draw will fail to counter and then draw a card because I’m hell bent before. I draw that card. If you swap it where I draw a card and then counter. Now the main fire is countered.

3:40:20 pm – Hank Wiest:
Right. Yes.

3:40:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
So it’s really it’s an, it’s a fun, little thought experiment when it comes to like the technicalities of how spells resolve and things like that of coming up with scenarios where the order of the modes does. In fact matter,

3:40:32 pm – Hank Wiest:
Okay, that’s really interesting. I might, I might have to steal that

3:40:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
It is really neat. Yeah. As I actually really enjoyed that.

3:40:35 pm – Hank Wiest:
thought experiment.

3:40:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
Absolutely Absolutely, that’s why I shared it because please steal away.

3:40:39 pm – Hank Wiest:
Hmm. Sorry. Normally no one gets priority during resolution. And notable exceptions to, this are the expertise cycle from. Was that Kaladash block.

3:40:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
That was caladesh. Yeah, rich

3:40:50 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah.

3:40:51 pm – Daniel Lee:
Rich example, like you may cast a spell with man of value five or less from your hand, something like that.

3:40:57 pm – Hank Wiest:
Ah, yeah, Henney’s expertise the the field white.

3:40:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hmm. Yeah, right. I play a race cars. Expertise in my sea monsters tribal commander deck. So because it’s draw cards equal to

3:41:08 pm – Hank Wiest:
Okay.

3:41:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
the greatest power among creatures. You control? And my commander is a 12-12

3:41:14 pm – Hank Wiest:
My commanders of Blue and Black

3:41:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay.

3:41:15 pm – Hank Wiest:
Phoenix. So,

3:41:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Well, there you go. All right, that sounds great.

3:41:20 pm – Hank Wiest:
Indeed, it is. And then, of course, you got pen glacial worm.

3:41:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
Everyone’s favorite.

3:41:25 pm – Hank Wiest:
Not sure why they even made this card but nobody expects a nine five.

3:41:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, it’s just, it’s It very much feels like a silver bordered mechanic, but I guess we have to call it an acorn stamp

3:41:36 pm – Hank Wiest:
It really does.

3:41:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
mechanic these days, right? But hey I’m all about silverware. I think that I think the unsets are fantastic. This one feels like a bit of a stretch to include in black border and as evidence by the fact that it’s a big rules problem. Like we keep coming up with these situations where like, okay, but what about paying glacial warm. Oh. When you’re like, good question.

3:41:57 pm – Hank Wiest:
Translational worm. The bane of existence everywhere.

3:42:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
It’s legal and modern.

3:42:03 pm – Hank Wiest:
So anyway, once the spell resolves, it’s going to be placed onto the battlefield if it’s a permanent or go to the graveyard if it’s an internal sorcery. So basically it’s gonna do its thing

3:42:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
Sure.

3:42:12 pm – Hank Wiest:
and then as the last part of the spell resolving, it’s going to get put into the graveyard.

3:42:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep, so this is helpful for situations, like, if I’m casting, abrupt decay on my opponent’s, rest in peace.

3:42:22 pm – Hank Wiest:
Mm-hmm.

3:42:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
Where does the rest in peace go? This is a little bit of a replacement fix question, but because you’re following the instructions order written. It goes, destroy target permanent. And the rest is like, Oh, I’m being destroyed, I’m still on the battlefield. I’m going to make myself go to exile and then As you’re as your site says, once that spell results. Okay. Yeah. My I brought the K is done doing its thing. Breast and peace is gone. It goes to the graveyard.

3:42:44 pm – Hank Wiest:
Exactly. Yes.

3:42:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:42:45 pm – Hank Wiest:
So what if targets become illegal? People people ask me that a lot.

3:42:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh no.

3:42:50 pm – Hank Wiest:
So, So the spell is going to do as much of the effect as possible on resolution. A spell with targets will resolve if at least one of those targets is still legal.

3:43:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep.

3:43:01 pm – Hank Wiest:
Now, if you have all of the targets become illegal, the spells not going to resolve colloquially called fizzling.

3:43:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep. I know at one point, this was considered it would be countered by the game rules and that was a And interesting. Added some interesting complications. They’ve changed that now.

3:43:17 pm – Hank Wiest:
Was Cap. Countered on resolution, right?

3:43:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
Counted on resolution, right? Exactly. And so, that is not a thing. Anyway, there we go. So you got there.

3:43:25 pm – Hank Wiest:
Prior to the release of Nominaria, it

3:43:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
You got it.

3:43:26 pm – Hank Wiest:
was called Counter Resolution. Now, I think it’s just does not resolve

3:43:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
Correct. Yeah, that does not resolve in his

3:43:30 pm – Hank Wiest:
so,

3:43:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
removed from the stack. Yeah.

3:43:32 pm – Hank Wiest:
Exactly. Yeah. So anyway that’s all through the

3:43:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep.

3:43:36 pm – Hank Wiest:
steps of casting a spell. And then the next part of this And then the next part of this presentation that I have is a series of example, questions

3:43:43 pm – Daniel Lee:
Just to be very, very clear, that was the steps of casting a spell and then also resolution of a spell.

3:43:49 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes.

3:43:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
Those are two separate things. There’s all the man of a priority responses and whatnot in the middle there. But yeah, but but this is also useful one note. I would add when it when it’s targets becoming illegal, because it says, If all the targets are legal, spell will not resolve that is only checked when the spell is about to resolve, Here’s what I mean by that, if I cast a lightning bolt in my opponent’s creature and my opponent goes finds a

3:44:12 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah.

3:44:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
a vastwood gives the creature hex proof the vines of ashwood resolves. My lightning bolt is still on the stack targeting this now, hex proof creature that the lightning bolt is

3:44:21 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes.

3:44:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
not going to get removed from the stack until it tries to resolve so I can still go. Okay. With the lightning bolts on the stack dress down. Remove the ability from the creature and now the lightning bolt will successfully resolve.

3:44:37 pm – Hank Wiest:
There. Yes.

3:44:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
so, the fact that the target was

3:44:38 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes.

3:44:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
briefly illegal, does not does not matter, as long as it was legal again, by the time, the lightning will start to resolve That’s a useful thing, it doesn’t come up a lot but when it does it’s trips people up. So

3:44:51 pm – Hank Wiest:
Also pretty hilarious because, you know, dress down.

3:44:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
You know what Flash being able to remove abilities? Makes certain questions a lot easier to ask. Instead of having to be like, I have a lay line of anticipation and I play humility like, No, you’re just dressed out dressed outside.

3:45:05 pm – Hank Wiest:
oh, Touchdown’s fine. So, anyway, into the examples that I

3:45:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
Examples. Yeah.

3:45:10 pm – Hank Wiest:
have. So example, one five creatures on the battlefield, Amanda cast Hex targeting, all of them legal play,

3:45:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hmm. Okay, well let’s look here. So Hex has says Destroy six target So Hex has says Destroy six target Well, there’s only five creatures on Well, there’s only five creatures on target something more than once, there needs to be Hmm. Okay. So Hex has says Destroy six target So Hex has says Destroy six target creatures. Well, there’s only five creatures on the battlefield and in order to target something more than once, there needs to be

3:45:37 pm – Hank Wiest:
That is not a legal play. Hex requires six targets to be cast at all. So the game’s going to rewind itself to just before, Amanda Cass tax.

3:45:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
All right, cool.

3:45:46 pm – Hank Wiest:
Already. Uh this is a fun one, Alex control the forest a black lotus. Must be nice and no other permanence

3:45:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
My friend.

3:45:55 pm – Hank Wiest:
She able to cast podcast.

3:45:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hmm. Okay, so we’ve got a forest and a black lotus. So when I announced Thoughtcast, there’s not a whole lot of choices we made there. So when we get to determining costs Thoughtcast has affinity for artifacts, I control one artifact. So it’s cost is going to get locked in at three generic and one blue if I then go to activate my main abilities activate Black Lotus for blue mana and tap the forest for a green that will pay for my thoughtcast.

3:46:24 pm – Hank Wiest:
That is correct. Yeah, because you’re locking the cost

3:46:26 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, there we go.

3:46:28 pm – Hank Wiest:
in and then the game doesn’t care at that point.

3:46:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep, exactly.

3:46:31 pm – Hank Wiest:
All righty, we have Adrian wanting to cast sprouts, more swarm with only wild canter and no other mana sources.

3:46:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay, so this is this is the trickle. We kind of spoiled this one a little bit earlier.

3:46:41 pm – Hank Wiest:
Wait, we did, yes.

3:46:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, but yeah. So the important part here is this used to work because you could tap the wild canter to reduce the cost of sprouts warm to just a green or to just one generic even. Because while I can’t do is a green, is a green creature and then sacrifice it to pay for the other mana, but the way that convoke works. Now, you would have to sacrifice the wild canter during the mana abilities portion and then it would no longer be on the battlefield, in order for you to tap it to pay for the to pay for the other one via convoke. So there’s no longer works.

3:47:10 pm – Hank Wiest:
Ah, yes, the casualty of the great rules updates.

3:47:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, it happens. Sometimes I love sprouts worms.

3:47:15 pm – Hank Wiest:
Indeed, it does.

3:47:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
So much that card was so good in future site limited.

3:47:19 pm – Hank Wiest:
I wasn’t actually playing then but I can imagine.

3:47:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
It’s yeah, just five man. I make it make a creature token. Anytime you want, turns out, that’s really good.

3:47:29 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah. Yeah, I can, I can imagine all righty.

3:47:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:47:33 pm – Hank Wiest:
We have We have Alex We have Alex controlling Island. In a scourge familiar has two silver, gilladeps in hand and no other cards.

3:47:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
All right.

3:47:40 pm – Hank Wiest:
Can she cast one of the adapts?

3:47:42 pm – Daniel Lee:
Whoo, okay. Oh, this is a cool one. This is not what I’m familiar with. So let’s walk through this. Okay, so I’m gonna go, I’m an attempt to

3:48:18 pm – Hank Wiest:
And what did we say about unpayable costs earlier?

3:48:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
Did we say something out on payable cost earlier?

3:48:23 pm – Hank Wiest:
We did, you can’t pay them.

3:48:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
No, he can’t pay oh, there you go. All right.

3:48:28 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah, but by the time that the costs would be paid neither adept is in Alex’s hand. Because as you said, one is on the

3:48:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:48:36 pm – Hank Wiest:
stack and the other one has been

3:48:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep.

3:48:37 pm – Hank Wiest:
discarded discouraged familiar.

3:48:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep, there we go.

3:48:40 pm – Hank Wiest:
Alrighty. No, next example, here we go. Anton controls a steel golem. Can he bestow boonseter onto it?

3:48:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, okay. Um, so My. Oh man. That’s a really good question. It might inclination. so, I will fully admit to not being super up on the specific details of bestow. If bestow works more, like Morph does where the card takes on the aura characteristics before like just before announcement. Then that thing, but based on what you’ve covered in this, I’m more inclined to think that you are choosing that during the proposal step, which would tell me that steel golem is gonna stop you before you even get started.

3:49:32 pm – Hank Wiest:
so,

3:49:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
I might be wrong about this. I’ll fully admit. I might be wrong.

3:49:35 pm – Hank Wiest:
so I I actually might need to update that one because I’m as, as you

3:49:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh,

3:49:40 pm – Hank Wiest:
mentioned from, you know, excellence with Squee this and might be a bit a bit out mentioned from Excellence binding with Squee this and might be a bit out date. but I may, Possible.

3:49:51 pm – Daniel Lee:
okay.

3:49:52 pm – Hank Wiest:
Like,

3:49:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh yeah.

3:49:55 pm – Hank Wiest:
Finding a squee, because We have.

3:49:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
There you go.

3:49:59 pm – Hank Wiest:
Because as you said, we have something saying that you can’t play creature spells but again, at the thing that see, this is an interesting one because my inclination is to say yes, because at the time, the game checks legality, it’s an aura, not a creature. I’m just wondering I I do need to

3:50:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right.

3:50:17 pm – Hank Wiest:
double check this one and see if

3:50:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:50:21 pm – Hank Wiest:
a steel golem actually works like a to stop bestow the way. I think it might now that we’ve had

3:50:26 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, so yeah. So someone someone just asking that

3:50:27 pm – Hank Wiest:
that combo

3:50:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
someone just asked in the In the Chat to Buy 81 says Doesn’t bestow make it an enchantment so let me clarify What I mean here is that it depends on when the game is gonna check to apply steel goals effect. If still going applies and applies like sort of to stop you from casting it in the first place. Then you never get a chance to state that you’re casting it with a You never get the chance to say. I’m casting this for its Bisto cost. Um, so I’m getting some folks.

3:51:02 pm – Hank Wiest:
Rapidly typing.

3:51:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
As Yeah. A spell with Bisto is either a creature spell or an aura spell. It’s never both similar permanent with the so’s either creature in orbit on both. Yeah, so that the problem is Whether? It’s it. So does it stop you from announcing it in the first place, is sort of the question that I’m that I’m unclear on at the moment because the stuff you from announcing it, then you never get the chance to choose to make it a to choose that you’re casting it as an aura. So it’s not a hundred percent clear at the moment. But that’s okay because we’re all here to learn. And so the proof is left as an exercise to the reader, go ahead and investigate this and we’ll figure it out.

3:51:39 pm – Hank Wiest:
yeah, like I said, I’m I’m definitely

3:51:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
because we got,

3:51:41 pm – Hank Wiest:
going to look into this one because that’s that’s an interesting case.

3:51:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay.

3:51:46 pm – Hank Wiest:
But the next question does involve my, my own personal pet card. Adam controls omniscience.

3:51:52 pm – Daniel Lee:
Ah, there we go.

3:51:53 pm – Hank Wiest:
Can he bestow hopeful Eidolon on to his room club air for free?

3:51:56 pm – Daniel Lee:
Aha. So this one is because bestow is an alternate cost to cast the spell. The answer is no because you can only pick one alternate cost.

3:52:05 pm – Hank Wiest:
Sadly, that is correct.

3:52:08 pm – Daniel Lee:
There’s a This comes up a little bit for me and pioneer because I play a lotus field which also uses omniscience. So sometimes that you run into things of like, Oh I can’t flash back my because I have Oh my gosh, the creature. The that gives all my instant sources flashback in my graveyard, the Name is escaping me, but I can’t flash back stuff for my graveyard via omniscience because flashbacks and

3:52:36 pm – Hank Wiest:
ah,

3:52:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
and alternate cost. So is omniscience, I can only pick

3:52:39 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes, it.

3:52:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
one

3:52:40 pm – Hank Wiest:
It yep. It yep. Uh, next one, Adrian controls 411 Spirit Creature Tokens. While Nisa controls a rampaging for acid on uh Adrian cast Kaya’s, wrath, will she gain life when it resolves?

3:52:52 pm – Daniel Lee:
So destroy all creatures. Yes, because you’ve done you follow the instructions in the order written.

3:52:57 pm – Hank Wiest:
That is correct. All creatures are destroyed at the time you gain the life for rampaging for acid on. Sadly, no longer around goodbye Dino. Uh, we talked a little bit about this one in a, with different styles of cards, but

3:53:12 pm – Daniel Lee:
Whoo, it’s funny because this one is a different answer.

3:53:16 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah, yes, Dryad militant. Nicole cast.

3:53:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

3:53:19 pm – Hank Wiest:
Dryad militant. Nicole cast. Lightning. Dryad Militant. Bolt Targeting. Where does lightning bolt go? When it resolves?

3:53:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
so, in the previous example, well, we were talking about we used rest in peace, and abrupt decay and abrupt decay says, Destroy target on that.

3:53:28 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes.

3:53:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
Dark target online. Permanent mana value through your less, so it destroys the rest in peace, which exiles itself, but the prop decay goes to the graveyard because the rest is gone here. The lightning bolt does not destroy the dryad militant. It marks three damage onto it and then the lightning bolt is exiled, before state-based actions are checked, which is what actually kills the right militant.

3:53:55 pm – Hank Wiest:
Lightning bolts, don’t kill creatures. State-based actions do.

3:53:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
Exactly. You got it.

3:53:59 pm – Hank Wiest:
Alrighty, and we we kind of spoiled the next one because it’s basically the same thing. But with doom blade, instead of lightning bolt

3:54:05 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, there you go. Yeah, the tomblade

3:54:06 pm – Hank Wiest:
so,

3:54:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
The Tomblade uh doom Yeah, the tomblade uh doom blade and dried militant instead of rep. Decay and rest Yeah. Yeah the tomblade uh doom blade and and rest in peace. and rest in peace. Yeah so it’s the same

3:54:15 pm – Hank Wiest:
Oh, just brief aside. Bring back Doom Blade.

3:54:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
Doom blades. A It’s a heck of a card.

3:54:21 pm – Hank Wiest:
Oh, I love that card.

3:54:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
Also, that artwork that artwork is so

3:54:24 pm – Hank Wiest:
Right.

3:54:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
good.

3:54:25 pm – Hank Wiest:
It’s really is. Uh, oh, here’s it. Here’s a fun one. Aaron controls Omnaft. Locus of Mana with four green in his mana pool. If he uses the mana and sacrifices

3:54:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay.

3:54:37 pm – Hank Wiest:
omnath, the cast momentous fall. How many cards does he draw? And how much life does he gain?

3:54:43 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, I’ve heard this one before. Okay, so um on math tidbar, go ahead and put it in there and we’ll get to it in just a second. Thank you for doing that. I appreciate it. So if he’s got four green mana in his pool so it’s gonna be a five five. And so the answer is, it depends.

3:55:01 pm – Hank Wiest:
The answer is it depends? Yes, depends on what order you pay

3:55:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
There you go.

3:55:06 pm – Hank Wiest:
the cost in and if you want to Pay the mana first. Then it’s gonna be one and a few sacrifice the creature first, it’ll be five.

3:55:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Yeah, so that’s the that’s the issue

3:55:19 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah.

3:55:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
where like if you can pay the cost in any order. So if you choose to sacrifice the omnath first, it’ll be sacrificed as a five five and then you get to then you can pay the amount of cost after that.

3:55:29 pm – Hank Wiest:
Now worth mentioning, you can’t pay two mana, then, sacrifice on that, then pay the rest of the mana.

3:55:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Yeah, because you have two constipate, you have the mana cost and the sacrifice creature cost.

3:55:39 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes. So, there is that example, 10, This is a example from back in my modern days. When I played Living End, Nathan Cass, cryptic command choosing to counter alvor’s living end and draw a card in response. Alvar cast, ricochet trap, changing CC’s, target to ricochet trap. What happens when CC resolves

3:56:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay, so counter living, and draw card, changing since you start to ricochet trap. Yeah, that’s so that’s. This is generally how you use a target redirects as a counter spell because then ricochet trap will have resolved. Yeah, so when you’re choosing changing the target structure trap. Actually mentioned this earlier, you have to change the target to a legal target so you have to change

3:56:21 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes.

3:56:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
So you have to change commands, counter targets, Bell to a legal target spell. Well while ricochet trap Well, while ricochet trap target so you have to change crypto commands, counter targets, Bell to a legal target spell. Well while ricochet trap is resolving, it’s a stealth spell on the stack. It’s a legal target for cryptic command. So you can do that. And then Ricoh chat finishes resolving goes to the graveyard and now cryptic command sitting there with no legal targets.

3:56:37 pm – Hank Wiest:
exactly and uh people will ask Well, wait why can’t you just change trip to commands target to itself game rules say, you can’t okay, game rules

3:56:43 pm – Daniel Lee:
Spell scam target themselves. Yeah, expelled. Yeah.

3:56:46 pm – Hank Wiest:
say you can’t

3:56:46 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Because those can’t target themselves.

3:56:48 pm – Hank Wiest:
exactly. So only target’s gone. Nathan does not draw a card and is

3:56:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, so it

3:56:53 pm – Hank Wiest:
presumably very sad.

3:56:54 pm – Daniel Lee:
Fails to resolve. Yeah, for sure. Okay. So we have a little bit of an update on.

3:56:59 pm – Hank Wiest:
Oh yes, please.

3:56:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
So to bar 81, shout So to bar 81, shout out. Shout out to you sir because you are helping us out really well. So, all right. Under the current rules. You can bestow despite you can’t cast creature spells. The rules changed in magic origins, okay? So even this might be out of date. Then because exelona since then, but we’ll see. Um, So Matt Tayback, who was the rules manager at the time, made some tweaks of the procedure of casting, a spell, proposal of the spell, checks legality. So we mentioned that earlier that there’s legality check after

3:57:30 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes.

3:57:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
proposal, proposal, then the games, finally something spells, legal calculator and pay costs, we deleted the rules as you can’t begin to cast as well as prohibited from being cast. So the problem is that that came back. That has come back since then, that’s what broke. The squeex the Squee and Excellence, binding interaction.

3:57:47 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah, it’s

3:57:48 pm – Daniel Lee:
So, that’s very interesting.

3:57:48 pm – Hank Wiest:
I’m gonna have to, I’m gonna have to look into this more but

3:57:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
So as of that writing I agree that that the bestow would have worked but I’m uncertain that So as of that writing I agree that that the bestow would have worked but I’m uncertain that that’s still the case. So I’m gonna I’m gonna look into that and

3:57:59 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah, I’m

3:57:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
Who knows? Maybe I’ll write a small article about it and just be like, hey, just

3:58:02 pm – Hank Wiest:
what is it? A

3:58:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
because we talked about this,

3:58:04 pm – Hank Wiest:
What is a CR 601 I think is casting a spell.

3:58:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
Something like that. Yeah, yeah.

3:58:08 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yeah, something like that.

3:58:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
We’re we’re running out of time here. So I unfortunately, I’d love to be able to look it up and go on an adventure here but

3:58:14 pm – Hank Wiest:
Well, I mean I’m out of slides. Anyway, so

3:58:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
Very exactly is of our timing is perfect. So Tim buried one. Thank you very much for your assistance. That’s very helpful because that was cited as of magic origins and I believe the rules have changed again since then I’m not certain that that’s still correct, but that’s very good point. That so our starting point is it was definitely true. At one point you could still cast that and that was the answer that you had on that slide.

3:58:40 pm – Hank Wiest:
That’s correct.

3:58:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
Anyways, right. Yeah, okay.

3:58:40 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yes.

3:58:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
So definitely So definitely was true at one point whether or not the other change that they did to break the ski they did to break the ski exons So now that that’s there and you So now that that’s there and you cannot cast Squee under that, I don’t can’t

3:59:00 pm – Hank Wiest:
Now, it’s not.

3:59:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, so that’s that’s the That’s the thing that I’m not sure about is that you. Can you even start the process? The answer is, it seems like that’s unclear at the moment but

3:59:09 pm – Hank Wiest:
I think I would need to look up the rules for bestow because like you mentioned with more like with with more when you cast, when you cast

3:59:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right.

3:59:15 pm – Hank Wiest:
that that it gains the properties of the morph card as your announcing it.

3:59:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
Be correct. Yeah, that’s it. So there’s a There’s an interaction that I always that I like to test for rules where it’s a if I have a morph as though it cavern in my graveyard and have a thing that lets me cast creature spells for my graveyard, I can morph it from the graveyard, that’s that’s an interaction that does work. So

3:59:34 pm – Hank Wiest:
oh,

3:59:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
Um yeah so that so that’s why there’s like it’s very interesting and it’s fun that we have a little bit of a project to go look up afterwards so we can And keep this gun, but

3:59:44 pm – Hank Wiest:
Yay, for Judge Homework.

3:59:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Exactly. The proof is left as an exercise to the reader, all right? Thank you very much, everyone for joining us. Thank you Hank for coming on joining us. This is a lot of fun. We had a good time. Talking about casting spell. Hopefully, everyone’s learned something from here. Hopefully you get something to take away. You got more questions, Please feel free to hit up the rules. General Channel on the Judge Academy discord, There’s a bunch of folks in there that love answering rules questions. So there’s a lot of a lot of good learning to be had here. Thank you very much everyone. Thank you again, thanks again to you Hank. Please come back and join us tomorrow where we’ve got some, Let’s see here. What’s, what’s on the sleep for tomorrow, we’ve got Chris Wilson is gonna be talking about managing criticism and maintaining passion at work. It’s gonna be, it’s gonna be real entertaining time. So, please come join us. 10 am Pacific time tomorrow morning. Thanks again to you Hank.

4:00:39 pm – Hank Wiest:
You’re welcome. Happy to be here.

4:00:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
Have a great. Have a good day, everyone. We’ll see you tomorrow. Bye.

4:00:44 pm – Hank Wiest:
See ya.