Judge Academy > Transcript – October First Week: Reading the IPG

Transcript – October First Week: Reading the IPG

10:02:49 am – Daniel Lee:
Good morning, and welcome back to Judge Academy first week for October today we have a very special guest with us today. We have Rob McKenzie Oh go ahead and introduce yourself to our viewers.

10:03:02 am – Rob McKenzie:
Hi, I’m Rob McKenzie, I’m level three Judge, I’m from Minnesota. I’ve judged a lot of random things. You might know me from good luck, High Five, where I have been guesting for basically, every set. Introduction For a while. I also just got to chat judge the Unfiniti Pre-release which is It might be the most fun. I’ve had judging any in the last year. It was amazing.

10:03:29 am – Daniel Lee:
That’s awesome. I remember in I believe it was 2019 is when unstable came out and so we had a big unstable draft of it at Grand Prix Oklahoma City. I guess it might have been Magic Festival, Oklahoma City but I was there for that. I wasn’t on that event but I heard stories of it and it was a wild good time. Players running up and down getting high fives to get there to get their thing. So, was there anything any anything

10:03:53 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep.

10:03:55 am – Daniel Lee:
particularly amusing from infinity?

10:04:00 am – Rob McKenzie:
Mark Roosevelt. Got to make the ruling that covering a person with a tarp does not conceal them for the purposes of watching a viewing them.

10:04:07 am – Daniel Lee:
Excellent.

10:04:08 am – Rob McKenzie:
He said, If I allow this everyone every game store in the United States is gonna do this. And this is insane. Don’t do this.

10:04:14 am – Daniel Lee:
All right. One of my favorite unrulings is. If you cast Enter the dungeon you play a sub game under the table. If you cast another enter the dungeon in that sub game, you just have to play a sub game under a different table. Which is a the useful really? Some people like you have to go downstairs. What’s going on here? But yeah I that’s one of my favorite ones which is like Oh yeah that actually does like make some kind of sense. All right. Um also because because we mentioned this on Monday, so my guess on Monday was Hank Weist who was briefly during Area Captain Erie. He was the area captain for the northern half of western Pennsylvania and so he was referred to by some folks, especially the folks in Pittsburgh. But as the King in the north and I said funny you should mention that because yesterday was the regional coordinator for USA North. So frequently got the nickname King in the north that way too.

10:05:14 am – Rob McKenzie:
Very frequently. I’ve got to thank you card from when we retired the North region that says Thank you to our king in the North.

10:05:17 am – Daniel Lee:
oh,

10:05:18 am – Rob McKenzie:
It’s really good.

10:05:19 am – Daniel Lee:
Excellent. That’s wonderful. That’s very sweet. So today so we did rules on Monday. So we’re gonna talk policy today and got a really interesting. Got a really interesting topic going on today. Rob, go ahead and tell us a little bit about where we’re going to talk about today.

10:05:33 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah, so one of the things that I know I had to reprocess my brain around was Yeah. know I had to reprocess my brain around was how the IPG is the infraction procedure, guideline is structured. Because Toby Elliott has done a really, really good job of building out the way that the IPG is is written so that you can actually just use the IPG as a whole as like a guide to how to handle different attractions. Um, but it’s not obvious, it’s not really spelled out anywhere in the IPG and knowing where to look for things how to look for things and how to how to figure out like penalties. Just from a structural standpoint, the IPG. I find help me a lot when I was trying to parse penalties and it’s it’s been something that I found useful for a long time.

10:06:19 am – Daniel Lee:
Right on. Okay, cool. So uh so it’s so to put another way, you could say that there is a structure to the document. That’s not like really spelled out or

10:06:26 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes.

10:06:27 am – Daniel Lee:
clearly communicated anywhere. So, that’s what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna talk about what that

10:06:31 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep.

10:06:32 am – Daniel Lee:
structure is, how to take advantage of it, and how you can use that as an additional tool in your arsenal, when it comes to handling judging it competitive rules enforcement

10:06:41 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep, exactly. That

10:06:43 am – Daniel Lee:
All right, cool. Um, so let’s go ahead and get started here. Let’s So, I see here on your first slide, it’s a secretly a flowchart. Well, there’s certainly no float,

10:06:51 am – Rob McKenzie:
It’s secretly a flow chart?

10:06:53 am – Daniel Lee:
There’s certainly no flow charts

10:06:53 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:06:54 am – Daniel Lee:
the IPG at least not since I last checked.

10:06:57 am – Rob McKenzie:
There’s there’s no explicit flow charts in the IPG but yeah, a lot of

10:06:59 am – Daniel Lee:
Exactly, that’s what I mean.

10:07:01 am – Rob McKenzie:
the people talk about a lot of the infractions as being flowcharty of, like, of the people talk about a lot of the infractions as being flowcharty of, like, do this and that, but the whole structure is that way. So tobymax and that it’s mostly a way

10:07:08 am – Daniel Lee:
Okay.

10:07:09 am – Rob McKenzie:
out a lot of different if do this then. Do that kind of situations.

10:07:14 am – Daniel Lee:
It’s almost like he’s a software engineer or something.

10:07:16 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah, right. Um, so I’m gonna concentrate, so you’re reading the APG for a reason. Um, you’re you’re not just like you, you might read it from for fun. If you’re like, I had like, if you’re a total weirdo, I I have done that once or twice, but um, if you’re on site, in an event, is when you’re gonna mostly be like, I really need to know this right now. I need to look through this and you

10:07:39 am – Daniel Lee:
Right.

10:07:39 am – Rob McKenzie:
And you aren’t sure what to do in this situation. Sometimes you’ll be reading it for And you aren’t sure what to do in this situation. Sometimes, you’ll be reading it for free event background knowledge. So you’ll be, you’ll be like, Look, I’ve got a head judge this rcq this, this Saturday, and I really want to just Have some idea of what, you know. You know, deck problems for deckless problems are for instance, because

10:07:58 am – Daniel Lee:
For sure.

10:07:58 am – Rob McKenzie:
always get them goofed up and they’ve changed like 50 times.

10:08:01 am – Daniel Lee:
yeah, I I know I always, I always make sure I refresh my deck problem upgrades are the ones that I always

10:08:06 am – Rob McKenzie:
I know, because

10:08:06 am – Daniel Lee:
smell like there’s like three of them and I have to make you

10:08:09 am – Rob McKenzie:
Right. And then and then you can blown up because you’re like, Well, I remember this used to be a game loss and it’s not always,

10:08:16 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:08:17 am – Rob McKenzie:
so, The, the actual structure, the APG. The most important part I find is actually the table of contents on page two. And there’s three big blocks that do something relevant within that table of contents. There’s the gameplay errors, the tournament errors and the unsporting conduct.

10:08:34 am – Daniel Lee:
Hmm. Yep.

10:08:35 am – Rob McKenzie:
and so that that breakdown there just tells you like what they, what these different like they’re broken up by sections because that’s the kind of problems that you run into and I have these broken up as Gameplay errors. Are I screwed up something in the game of magic. Yeah, you’re playing.

10:08:50 am – Daniel Lee:
Okay.

10:08:51 am – Rob McKenzie:
You’re playing a game of magic you made a mistake. That’s all. Every gameplay error is just dealing with that. It doesn’t do with anything else. It’s you were physically playing a game with somebody and you you give something up, which is super frequently and it’s, it’s the first section of that. Because it’s the thing that comes up the most

10:09:05 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, you could say you could say that’s the one sort of interacts with the, the comprehensive rules the most, right?

10:09:09 am – Rob McKenzie:
Um, yes, exactly.

10:09:10 am – Daniel Lee:
Like, your gamer violations, I drew an extra card. I saw a card, I wasn’t supposed to

10:09:14 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:09:14 am – Daniel Lee:
things like that.

10:09:15 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah, I I missed something that I was supposed to do within within an actual physical game. There’s an opponent here, we’re doing a thing. One of us, goofed it up for both of us, scooped it up.

10:09:23 am – Daniel Lee:
Okay.

10:09:24 am – Rob McKenzie:
Tournament stuff, we’ve got a bolted on structure. Right. So like the the actual game of magic knows nothing about rounds or pairings or Swiss points or any of

10:09:33 am – Daniel Lee:
Time limits are yeah.

10:09:34 am – Rob McKenzie:
that. decklists Our time limits or even or even decklists Yeah. Our time limits or even or even Our time limits or even or even decklists that. Our time limits or even or even Our time limits or even or even decklists that. Yeah, our time limits or even or even decklists decklists are a thing that we bolted on to try to keep things fair. In a, in an that. Yeah. decklists decklists are a thing that we bolted on to try to keep things fair in a in an environment where you’re winning money and

10:09:40 am – Daniel Lee:
Right.

10:09:43 am – Rob McKenzie:
tournament errors. Anything that deals with anything outside of a single game of magic on like outside of that context, anything that you can’t find in the conference rules gets shoved out into the tournament error stuff.

10:09:55 am – Daniel Lee:
You can think of this as a stuff that literally can’t happen at a like kitchen table game, right?

10:09:59 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes, exactly. If you if you run into a situation you’re like Well this wouldn’t even make sense. If I was just like I was playing Edh if it couldn’t show up in ADH game with your buddies, it’s almost certainly a tournament error.

10:10:09 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, for sure.

10:10:10 am – Rob McKenzie:
And that’s, that’s why this stuff’s pulled out into its own section up here. Um and then we have Unsorting conduct. This is things that this person is a big jerk of someone in some way is

10:10:20 am – Daniel Lee:
Behavior.

10:10:22 am – Rob McKenzie:
like, Yeah, it’s the behavior of the player and it’s independent of a game. It’s independent of a tournament. If this is something that might get them in trouble with a game store owner, when they’re playing a board game, unrelated to magic. like so this is the the outside like

10:10:34 am – Daniel Lee:
Mmm. Okay.

10:10:36 am – Rob McKenzie:
like people interacting with people because all the other stuff is like

10:10:38 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:10:39 am – Rob McKenzie:
structured rules for playing a game structured room, the rules for like, having multiple games going on to try to determine the best at games today. But this is stuff where, you know, you got manager, opponent, and you called them a racial slur. Don’t do that. It’s very bad. We rules for it because we don’t want you to do it. because the the fundamental thing about magic is, it’s a game that people play And so, we have to do with how people play it.

10:11:05 am – Daniel Lee:
So you could say, this is like there’s things unique to magic things unique to tournaments and then things unique to neither of those things

10:11:10 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah. Yeah exactly.

10:11:12 am – Daniel Lee:
stuff That’s just generally. Yeah.

10:11:14 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yet Yet the general general stuff that happens that some of it is a little specialized for magic tournaments like theft of tournament materials, but that’s really just feeling

10:11:20 am – Daniel Lee:
Sure.

10:11:22 am – Rob McKenzie:
like, don’t steal from people is

10:11:22 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:11:24 am – Rob McKenzie:
like,

10:11:26 am – Daniel Lee:
That’s a good note.

10:11:26 am – Rob McKenzie:
A general, good rule.

10:11:26 am – Daniel Lee:
I’m gonna write that one down. That’s good to know.

10:11:29 am – Rob McKenzie:
You that’s important on. They it some people have said, some things on it sometimes. Um, the those sections when you call when you call out the sections. So if you look at gameplay hairs here, Um when you when you go into the game player section and the tournament error section as well, you can treat them. Like I said, like a flow chart. You go down the list and you check Is this a mistreated? Did they screw a trigger? Is it a trigger that got missed? Did they look at some extra cards? Did they have a hidden card error? You check each one in order to see whether or not it’s whatever mistake they made falls into that bucket. The game rules violation is when you run out of the other things, it wasn’t. They screwed up something in the game. It wasn’t to trigger, they missed, they didn’t look at extra cards, they didn’t like move cards around between hidden groups and they didn’t screw up a Mulligan. Um, this is an other bucket. And understanding that there’s another bucket here and the other bucket isn’t the last bucket.

10:12:23 am – Daniel Lee:
Right.

10:12:24 am – Rob McKenzie:
Is I find really helpful of knowing just like, I don’t know what to call this, They screwed up something in a completely novel way. It must be a game rules violation. they screwed up something in the It because it’s a gameplay error, game. It didn’t match any of the other things. I don’t understand. Like they, they like, I’ve had people do things like, just their opponent ended. Their turn goes to their turn, they misunderstood, what was going on and they said, No, no, it’s your turn. And their opponent, untapped into a second turn in a row.

10:12:53 am – Daniel Lee:
Okay. Excellent. That’s actually something like that happened before. Yeah.

10:12:56 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes, and that’s the like I don’t know, like nothing is gonna explicitly cover, every way that players can make mistakes in games. And yeah.

10:13:07 am – Daniel Lee:
It’s interesting, you could. So to put another way using a slightly different logical structure,

10:13:11 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:13:11 am – Daniel Lee:
If you look at this as a chain of like if then if then like if then

10:13:13 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes.

10:13:14 am – Daniel Lee:
else if then else then this is kind of like the last else is if nothing

10:13:16 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:13:18 am – Daniel Lee:
else works. Then here then it’s gonna fall in here.

10:13:20 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep. Yeah, exactly that and the failure to maintain Gates, game states

10:13:22 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:13:25 am – Rob McKenzie:
game states underneath this. And I see this get messed up by people a lot. They want to say somebody failed to maintain the game state and give out a penalty for it.

10:13:32 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:13:34 am – Rob McKenzie:
For this structure is underneath game rules violation. You’ll never check for it. It’s only given out if you already gave out the one above it and you want to give out a bonus penalty. and so, like,

10:13:44 am – Daniel Lee:
Or it’s appropriate to get out of bonus penalty.

10:13:45 am – Rob McKenzie:
Right.

10:13:46 am – Daniel Lee:
Let’s say.

10:13:46 am – Rob McKenzie:
What’s appropriate to convert a bonus penalty but like, you’ll never get to

10:13:47 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:13:49 am – Rob McKenzie:
But like, you’ll never get to it normally through normal. Like, the way that infractions work is you check for the infraction, you figure out what they did wrong and this is just checking for the infraction, right? This is looking in. This is What did they do wrong? How did they do it wrong? Is this section. You don’t, This doesn’t have any knowledge of penalties. You can see there’s no penalty listed on here on this.

10:14:08 am – Daniel Lee:
Right.

10:14:08 am – Rob McKenzie:
this section. because you weren’t looking for a penalty yet. Um, you don’t, you go infraction first, then penalty, and again,

10:14:15 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:14:15 am – Rob McKenzie:
And again, this is something that takes rewiring of your brain. And that’s the thing that I like to talk about, a lot is figuring out like Like how to read a magic card, right? Is, is a different way of thinking about about a thing.

10:14:26 am – Daniel Lee:
Absolutely.

10:14:27 am – Rob McKenzie:
And And this is a different way of thinking about like You don’t think. I really want to give somebody a game loss here. You think this person like gave their opponent a bonus turn? That’s a game rules violation that they did it wrong. But like, what does it lead to,

10:14:41 am – Daniel Lee:
Right.

10:14:41 am – Rob McKenzie:
from there?

10:14:42 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, you have to, you have to determine so. often times, you’ll hear, will you when I like a mentorship scenario, you’ll if someone’s asking a policy question generally, they’re gonna ask What is the infraction penalty in fix and the fact that we ask them in, those order is extremely intentional

10:14:56 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep. Yes.

10:15:00 am – Daniel Lee:
because you figure out what the

10:15:01 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes.

10:15:02 am – Daniel Lee:
infraction is first. So that’s why like you said, No penalties are listed here because we haven’t gotten there yet.

10:15:06 am – Rob McKenzie:
Open. Yeah, yeah. And this is another reason that I like to start on page two and not look at any of the other stuff when I’m trying to figure out what I’m doing is because I’m not distracted by trying to figure out. Well, I don’t feel like this is worth the game loss. I don’t want to don’t worry about how, what things are worth, what

10:15:20 am – Daniel Lee:
No. Yeah.

10:15:21 am – Rob McKenzie:
things are valued yet. I’m just trying to trying to see. They screwed it up and we have a way to fix it, probably maybe. um, the thing with tournament errors tournament error does not have other when you go down into that section,

10:15:36 am – Daniel Lee:
That’s true.

10:15:37 am – Rob McKenzie:
And so I a thing that I’ve that I’ve run and do with people who aren’t super ipg familiar before is you know, somebody failed to bring a way to record anything they didn’t bring tokens, they didn’t bring a pennant paper. They have no way to record anything about the game and they’re just gonna sit down and play. They didn’t even bring a phone, they just brought a deck and nothing else. So just technically all you need, right?

10:16:00 am – Daniel Lee:
Yep.

10:16:04 am – Rob McKenzie:
And you the MTR requires you to have ways to record life. Totals, what do you do?

10:16:08 am – Daniel Lee:
Yep.

10:16:11 am – Rob McKenzie:
And is this an infraction? And I they start puzzling about it. They’re well like, it’s got to be an infraction, they did something wrong. it’s not tournament errors, have a listed, you know nine options and if it doesn’t fall on that bucket of problems where they screwed up an MTR thing, we don’t have any, any real solution for it. Our solution is, Please fix this. And then, if they don’t fix it, we can treat it as people. Problems of them trying not to fix situations.

10:16:38 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Yeah.

10:16:40 am – Rob McKenzie:
But like that, if you, if they aren’t late to a match, if they didn’t get advice from a buddy, if they didn’t play too slow intentional like Semi-intentionally. If they didn’t, if they didn’t screw up their deck, their deck lists, they didn’t scrub drafting, they didn’t, you know, accidentally give their opponent bad info, their cards aren’t marked, and they shuffled enough. Well, then we we aren’t gonna give them any kind of infraction.

10:17:03 am – Daniel Lee:
They’ve done, they’ve done all the really important stuff when it comes to tournament procedures.

10:17:06 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah. Yeah, the week you can view. This is a list of like absolute minimum requirements. This is like building a tournament to

10:17:13 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:17:14 am – Rob McKenzie:
code or building a gameplay like like

10:17:17 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, I hear you.

10:17:17 am – Rob McKenzie:
yeah. And so this is the, the you have the exact minimum standards, anything, anything outside of that, you’d like to see you like, yeah. And so this is the, the you have the exact minimum standards, anything, anything outside of that, you’d like to see you like, This is the, it’s not unsporting. like, yeah. And so this is the, the you have the exact minimum standards, anything, anything outside of that, you’d like to see you like, This is the, it’s not unsporting, but it’s not sporting kind of space.

10:17:29 am – Daniel Lee:
Uh-huh.

10:17:30 am – Rob McKenzie:
You did exactly these minimums.

10:17:31 am – Daniel Lee:
Exactly. Yeah, you did. You did your bare minimum?

10:17:33 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah. And that again the other reason why I like to look at the at the first page two is because then I could look at this and say, I don’t think it fits any of those like I can kind of like force it or squeeze it into one of these situations but I don’t think it, it doesn’t fit cleanly. So I probably just want to Just have them fix it and move on. Or please play better. Like, please don’t like. it like you gave out bad information, but it wasn’t like, It didn’t fall in a communication policy violation.

10:18:03 am – Daniel Lee:
Right.

10:18:03 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah, communicate a little bit

10:18:03 am – Daniel Lee:
That’s

10:18:04 am – Rob McKenzie:
Communicate a little bit better with your opponent. That’s one that comes up. A lot is yeah.

10:18:06 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, absolutely.

10:18:08 am – Rob McKenzie:
Players like not being clear about where they are in the turn or like a player going?

10:18:12 am – Daniel Lee:
Mm-hmm.

10:18:12 am – Rob McKenzie:
I want to cast the spell and their opponent saying, It like just saying, uh to it and they go, all right, resolving my spell. Like they didn’t even say, okay, but the opponent didn’t want to do

10:18:23 am – Daniel Lee:
Right.

10:18:24 am – Rob McKenzie:
anything The opponent didn’t know what the spell did at that point. Um but like those kind of situations where it’s just, it’s fine. Um, just help them out. This is the also what I’ve used like the regular RL zone. That secretly inside of competitive, because a lot of the time you want soft fixes, you want the ability to talk to with players and just get them to be a little bit better or like, look, we want everybody to have

10:18:48 am – Daniel Lee:
Right.

10:18:50 am – Rob McKenzie:
fun. Like Can you just like talk a little bit more? You don’t have to, you don’t have to

10:18:54 am – Daniel Lee:
Well.

10:18:56 am – Rob McKenzie:
like spell out every mode of every card and super explicit detail but just Just make it that you and your opponent are playing the same game of magic is the communication one.

10:19:04 am – Daniel Lee:
For sure. And and there’s some players that are definitely like they always feel like they’re in a rush to do things that

10:19:11 am – Rob McKenzie:
Right.

10:19:11 am – Daniel Lee:
things that that leads to them being,

10:19:13 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep.

10:19:13 am – Daniel Lee:
like, cast a spell. And then if the opponent makes any

10:19:15 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep.

10:19:15 am – Daniel Lee:
noise at all, cool, my spell resolves. Right, like, it’s

10:19:17 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah, yeah. And the

10:19:19 am – Daniel Lee:
Mmm.

10:19:20 am – Rob McKenzie:
And the you’re looking at it from a player lens, this is also your operations stuff. Your make sure you’re looking at it from a player lens, this is also your operations stuff. Your make sure your decklist was filled out correctly, Kind of stuff When you’re as a player and you want to make sure that you don’t get what feels like arbitrary, random game losses or match losses for stuff. This is the stuff you want to avoid.

10:19:40 am – Daniel Lee:
Mm-hmm.

10:19:40 am – Rob McKenzie:
and so it if you flip it on it, when

10:19:40 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. For sure.

10:19:42 am – Rob McKenzie:
a a player says, How do I, how do I avoid getting random game losses at your tournament? I go, Well, make sure your list is together, That’s the deckless problem. Make sure that your deck isn’t missing cards, double check, you’ve failed, you didn’t fail to decide boards. We don’t have to mess with that. Probably don’t ask your buddy to tell your tell you the contents of your opponent’s hand and get a reasonable pace and show up on time. And that covers like That’s basically this and shuffle. Your deck enough. And make sure your sleeves are clean. And players will come up and pre-check on some of this stuff, too, because they know that these are problems.

10:20:15 am – Daniel Lee:
Right. Exactly.

10:20:16 am – Rob McKenzie:
and it’s good to know exactly where Like how this all falls together and why you might check for, you know, a deck problem before you and look at marked cards because I like to go just down the line on this one. Just the same.

10:20:29 am – Daniel Lee:
It’s funny because this is the area. So specifically, I I’ve had that experience to a players that come up and be like How can I avoid game losses? I don’t want to get um I I sympathize that night understand and I actually like that players do that they they

10:20:43 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah, absolutely.

10:20:44 am – Daniel Lee:
They they want to know how to avoid bad things happening and that’s great. So in so it’s interesting to note that here is actually where most of the game losses that are left in the IPG. Generally most of them live here.

10:20:56 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah, yeah, just right in the section. This is, this is how you get game. Losses is basically in the section

10:21:01 am – Daniel Lee:
Mmm. Yeah. Yeah, the

10:21:02 am – Rob McKenzie:
and so yeah.

10:21:04 am – Daniel Lee:
I’m gonna double check myself for real quick, but the only penalty that is still a baseline game loss is in this section and that’s your 3.4, decal problem. That’s the only one that is still.

10:21:13 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep, exactly.

10:21:14 am – Daniel Lee:
That is a baseline game loss and that’s Right here.

10:21:18 am – Rob McKenzie:
And a tiny, this is listed as a game loss as well, because starting this is a little weird.

10:21:21 am – Daniel Lee:
Oh that you’re you’re absolutely right. Yeah, tardiness is a is also it

10:21:24 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:21:25 am – Daniel Lee:
baseline game loss because you’ve got the we have a downgrade if it’s

10:21:27 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:21:28 am – Daniel Lee:
within the minute, you’re totally

10:21:29 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes.

10:21:29 am – Daniel Lee:
right?

10:21:30 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah. Yeah.

10:21:30 am – Daniel Lee:
It’s just that those problems. The one I end up issuing the most often

10:21:34 am – Rob McKenzie:
Like, but you secretly individual and tardiness the most, I would actually argue that my most given penalty across my whole history is probably target is either is Grv followed by targeting us.

10:21:43 am – Daniel Lee:
It’s been also, if you consider like no shows, right? Because you’re issuing, a try and

10:21:45 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah, exactly.

10:21:47 am – Daniel Lee:
upgraded tardiness match loss at that

10:21:48 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:21:48 am – Daniel Lee:
point. Yeah that yeah absolutely sure.

10:21:49 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah, and so and we’ll actually talk about that in a minute here.

10:21:55 am – Daniel Lee:
All right.

10:21:55 am – Rob McKenzie:
Um the the unsporting context, sections, a little different. I view it as a check, all that apply section. Like, you don’t just stop when you

10:22:02 am – Daniel Lee:
Mm-hmm.

10:22:04 am – Rob McKenzie:
on sporting conduct Unlike unlike game rules violations. Unlike tournament errors or unlike gameplay errors or tournament errors. These are in many cases, not errors. They’re deliberate choices made by a player. And they can do multiple things. So like if you had a player that like took their opponent sideboard, after the game called, the Mauritius to learn walked away, they are guilty of both theft of tournament materials and unsporting. Conduct Major. Right, we probably will only give out

10:22:28 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:22:29 am – Rob McKenzie:
the worst one after tournament materials or maybe the unsporting. Major upgrade Like 601, half a dozens another, if they say, Oh, I grab that sideboard an accident. I didn’t mean to steal it. I’ll be like, fine, whatever. Get this sideboard back. You’re still getting disqualified because you like deliberately called yourself, your opponent of racial slern weren’t apologetic

10:22:48 am – Daniel Lee:
Yep.

10:22:48 am – Rob McKenzie:
but um, you can, you could Give out on sporting conduct minor. Plus another thing without too much trouble, if they’re if they’re like being really, really obnoxious about anything.

10:23:01 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, I definitely had situations where I’m issuing like a grv or something in the player was like super not cool about it and it’s

10:23:07 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:23:09 am – Daniel Lee:
like, all right. Listen, you’re digging yourself a

10:23:10 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:23:12 am – Daniel Lee:
whole whole worse hole here by not, I realizing that you have earned this penalty and you’re getting it now. And so you are now getting another one as a reminder that that’s not appropriate behavior.

10:23:24 am – Rob McKenzie:
Exactly. And if you’re doing two of these, you

10:23:25 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:23:26 am – Rob McKenzie:
can use one to inform the other. Especially because the upgrade for USC major is being unrepent

10:23:34 am – Daniel Lee:
Yes, absolutely.

10:23:34 am – Rob McKenzie:
Unrepentant. so if you, if you are unrepentant about whatever you did to earn a USC major, and it was combined with the fact that you like It were like actively stalling or whatever. Like I’ll give you like that. Informs my ability to get you an upgrade right?

10:23:50 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, absolutely.

10:23:51 am – Rob McKenzie:
If I know that you’re breaking, If I know that you’re breaking multiple rules at the same time and you just do not care. I, I don’t want you in my tournament.

10:23:58 am – Daniel Lee:
Yep, for sure.

10:23:58 am – Rob McKenzie:
And so it like tech, it’s hard to do to it. Like it’s not the ones that you do with the other ones are usually my USC minor? You see major, right? Like it’s technically possible to

10:24:06 am – Daniel Lee:
Mm-hmm.

10:24:08 am – Rob McKenzie:
like, Steal your opponents thing and try to bribe them by giving them back their own thing. But that like I did this is like I’ve been doing this for a long time and I’ve never seen that particular like a lot of these combinations come up

10:24:18 am – Daniel Lee:
Right.

10:24:19 am – Rob McKenzie:
come up, but this is not it. Unlike unlike gameplay errors, I’m like, tournament errors, you can give like, tournament errors, you can give come up. Unlike unlike gameplay errors, I’m like, tournament errors. You can give like, these are any of these can apply. At the same time I can threaten my opponent at the same time as I cheat. Right. And these aren’t necessarily

10:24:32 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, for sure.

10:24:34 am – Rob McKenzie:
exclusive because these are the freeform answer people problems in a lot of circumstance. the other thing with unsporting conduct is, sometimes you do end up squeezing things a little bit, unlike the other sections On the other sections are, if they don’t match. Exactly. Don’t try to push something into a section where it isn’t. But because unsporting conduct minor and major, are both a little bit amorphous. Sometimes, you’ll push things a

10:24:56 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:24:57 am – Rob McKenzie:
little like one way or another, right? Um, access the things that somebody

10:25:00 am – Daniel Lee:
For sure.

10:25:01 am – Rob McKenzie:
Um access the things that somebody does accidentally. Um, I tend to be a bit more forgiving of, right? Like if they like it’s very possible

10:25:06 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:25:08 am – Rob McKenzie:
to, um, do things which like, which I would give aggressive behavior in one circumstance, but I give you a C minor in another circumstance. You get up, you push your chair in too hard on purpose and knock over all the decks of all the players at the table because you’re angry, your opponent, you’re trying to like make them feel threatened, aggressive

10:25:23 am – Daniel Lee:
You’re yeah.

10:25:24 am – Rob McKenzie:
behavior out of here.

10:25:25 am – Daniel Lee:
Absolutely. Get out of my tournament. Yeah.

10:25:26 am – Rob McKenzie:
But if you slip and push your chair into hard and hit the table and knock everybody’s decks over, it’s the same physical result. But your actual intent matters and you go.

10:25:35 am – Daniel Lee:
Pressure.

10:25:35 am – Rob McKenzie:
Sorry, there’s a water I didn’t see it. I didn’t intend to do this. I’ll be like I might not even give you a C minor, but like you’ll see minor wouldn’t necessarily be out of like I think I think that you were trying to push your chair in a little heart. Anyways, like Please don’t be in sporting all the other people at the table but I don’t you were

10:25:52 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:25:53 am – Rob McKenzie:
aggressively like threatening anybody.

10:25:54 am – Daniel Lee:
Like, keep keep your temper and check here a little bit because you’re

10:25:56 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:25:57 am – Daniel Lee:
you’re now outwardly affecting

10:25:57 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:25:58 am – Daniel Lee:
others, it wasn’t intentional, you weren’t directing it at someone, but

10:25:59 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:26:01 am – Daniel Lee:
But like, there’s still a reinforcement here of like that’s not acceptable tone it down.

10:26:04 am – Rob McKenzie:
Right.

10:26:07 am – Daniel Lee:
I so I was thinking so you mentioned

10:26:07 am – Rob McKenzie:
Right.

10:26:09 am – Daniel Lee:
them being a little amorphous and it reminded me of a few months ago when

10:26:11 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:26:13 am – Daniel Lee:
we published that policy clarification, when it came to intentionally misgendering a and

10:26:17 am – Rob McKenzie:
Exactly.

10:26:18 am – Daniel Lee:
opponent and like it was it was a lot of folks. The reason we thought like that was useful to issues because a lot of folks weren’t super clear where that fell between minor and major.

10:26:25 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:26:27 am – Daniel Lee:
And so, we wanted to make it very clear that? definitely major territory that does absolutely, especially

10:26:32 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep.

10:26:34 am – Daniel Lee:
Absolutely. Especially like, especially, as we’ve been saying intentionally. Like, if you’re just disregarding

10:26:36 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes.

10:26:39 am – Daniel Lee:
your opponent’s pronouns, then you are absolutely creating a situation where they could feel Harassbullied stock that kind of a thing, like that’s like it fits with, in major,

10:26:45 am – Rob McKenzie:
Right. Yeah.

10:26:47 am – Daniel Lee:
absolutely. So,

10:26:48 am – Rob McKenzie:
Right. But if like, if they have a pin that tells their, that tells the preferred pronouns on them, and you call them by the wrong pronouns, then immediately apologize. I’m sorry, it’s supposed to be, she heard it’s supposed to be he him, or

10:26:58 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Yeah.

10:27:00 am – Rob McKenzie:
whatever. Like, I’m not even gonna give you like, and they’re like, you’ve done this three times. This match, I’ll be like I might give you an important minor just as a like,

10:27:08 am – Daniel Lee:
Right, if you are.

10:27:09 am – Rob McKenzie:
It could not be better.

10:27:10 am – Daniel Lee:
It’s one of those things.

10:27:10 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:27:11 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, you’re correcting yourself. That’s good, which is why we don’t

10:27:14 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes.

10:27:15 am – Daniel Lee:
want that to fall into major territory.

10:27:16 am – Rob McKenzie:
Right.

10:27:17 am – Daniel Lee:
If it keeps happening though, there’s a point where you you can be making a better effort so

10:27:21 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes.

10:27:21 am – Daniel Lee:
So we would like to reinforce that that is what you

10:27:22 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:27:23 am – Daniel Lee:
should be doing. So I think that I think that I think

10:27:25 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:27:26 am – Daniel Lee:
that makes perfect sense. Yeah, absolutely.

10:27:28 am – Rob McKenzie:
and, and the The like I said, the line on this is this whole section is if you get it. I also treat this as my spider sense section. quickly, if I get new situation and

10:27:38 am – Daniel Lee:
Okay.

10:27:38 am – Rob McKenzie:
I’m like, I am deeply unhappy with whatever just happened here and I’m like, I don’t remember whether or not I should be giving out an infraction for how deeply unhappy. I’m with this player, you can step aside like Take a look at this and go, is this, is this, you know, one of the, the big ones that get gdq. This is aggressive theft stalling, cheating. Right? Or is it one like and then you can look at this and say, I don’t think it was any of those, those are pretty clear in what they are from their name. Was it minor or major? Then you go out to the section and look at them and you can give those later is the other half of this is

10:28:12 am – Daniel Lee:
Gets.

10:28:13 am – Rob McKenzie:
All of these penalties are ones that I don’t feel bad retroactively giving like, for previous round. Gameplay, errors, we fix immediate tournament errors. We fix immediately as soon as we

10:28:22 am – Daniel Lee:
Mmm.

10:28:22 am – Rob McKenzie:
become aware of, either of those things and gameplay, errors, don’t persist outside of the game. If the game’s gone the infractions

10:28:27 am – Daniel Lee:
Yep.

10:28:28 am – Rob McKenzie:
on, right?

10:28:29 am – Daniel Lee:
Yep.

10:28:30 am – Rob McKenzie:
Is how is how we treat them. And so this is also the other way to look at. This is like how wide you can go for a scope.

10:28:37 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, for sure.

10:28:37 am – Rob McKenzie:
The gameplay errors, you’ll give out just within a game tournament errors or a wider school. You have any point in the tournament where they’re figured out you’ll give a tournament error. And then these are even outside the scope of the tournament, I have retroactively disqualified players.

10:28:50 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, for sure.

10:28:51 am – Rob McKenzie:
Because, um, working Star City opens back in the day. I definitely had players that were that people were like, Hey, you were the hedgeance tournament, can you review this film footage? And I’ll be like Oh, I mmm. I don’t like that.

10:29:07 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:29:08 am – Rob McKenzie:
That’s um, and so then, That’s um, and so then those are tough. You don’t like Richard EQ. I don’t I don’t want to do it.

10:29:14 am – Daniel Lee:
Mmm.

10:29:15 am – Rob McKenzie:
But um if they if they are cheating I need to provide that to to wizards so that they can be banned.

10:29:24 am – Daniel Lee:
Absolutely. Yeah.

10:29:24 am – Rob McKenzie:
banned. And so that’s that’s my overriding goal for a retro, DQ, they I treat them as a fairly high like standard of. I need to do a lot of work to figure this out. Post tournament.

10:29:34 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, for sure. And like even if we often, you know, there is I’ve heard a lot of judges, make an announcement to this when they’re when they’re talking about

10:29:43 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:29:43 am – Daniel Lee:
making announcement to their players of like, you know, Oh, don’t go rolling a diet to determine your match result or whatnot. whatnot. And they’ll usually make some kind of don’t want to do paperwork, paperwork don’t want to do paperwork, paperwork being a euphemism Oh, don’t go rolling a diet to determine your determine your match result or whatnot. a, some kind of a joke about, like, I don’t want to do paperwork, paperwork being a euphemism for a DQ here, um, and like, and it’s they and

10:29:55 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

10:30:00 am – Daniel Lee:
and like, and it’s they and the vast majority of this time, it’s done anyway, where it’s like, I’m gonna do it if it’s appropriate. If it’s appropriate, I just don’t

10:30:05 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes.

10:30:06 am – Daniel Lee:
want to, don’t make me.

10:30:07 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes. You and I have the same goal here. Yeah. You have the goal of not Yes. here. Yeah, you and I have the same goal You have the goal of not getting

10:30:10 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:30:11 am – Rob McKenzie:
kicked out of my tournament. I have the goal of not kicking you out of my tournament, but

10:30:15 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:30:15 am – Rob McKenzie:
But second goal of like the other players in this tournament matter as much as

10:30:19 am – Daniel Lee:
Yes, absolutely.

10:30:19 am – Rob McKenzie:
you do to me. Um so like yeah, the the widening scope of these means that you can especially at convention style events. You might end up finding out about a theft later so like they took their

10:30:32 am – Daniel Lee:
Mmm.

10:30:33 am – Rob McKenzie:
opponent’s deck after a match. um, that’s not unreasonable to disqualify for them from the tournament that they stole the deck from Right.

10:30:40 am – Daniel Lee:
Right.

10:30:40 am – Rob McKenzie:
Um, and again, mostly this is because I want the report to get to wizards. And nowadays in DQ is being handled

10:30:47 am – Daniel Lee:
Mmm.

10:30:48 am – Rob McKenzie:
by the tournament organizer. Um, I’m a little unclear about exactly how suspensions work because wizards has made that all very private.

10:30:56 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, for sure. And there’s and there’s privacy law.

10:30:57 am – Rob McKenzie:
but um,

10:30:59 am – Daniel Lee:
reasons for why?

10:31:00 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah, but

10:31:00 am – Daniel Lee:
That’s why that’s happening for sure.

10:31:02 am – Rob McKenzie:
but I have seen that it has happened. That people have been contacted by wizards and been like, please don’t come to events for x amount of time.

10:31:09 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:31:10 am – Rob McKenzie:
I and so, like again, you’ll be thinking, Well, I don’t get to see any of the results. I don’t know what’s going to happen. I filled out all this. All this paperwork, I gave it a terminal guys and it vanished and there’s no follow-up. And that’s just the, the nature of things because wizards is very conservative, about releasing any information about anybody. But the it does make a difference for wizards to people from from events.

10:31:34 am – Daniel Lee:
Absolutely.

10:31:35 am – Rob McKenzie:
And the other thing that you can do with some of these, if you don’t feel like you’re getting immediate action, if you’re in this category and you boot somebody for your tournament, the additional remedy on a lot of these is and the tournament guys, tournament, organizer should probably kick them out of the venue.

10:31:48 am – Daniel Lee:
Yes.

10:31:50 am – Rob McKenzie:
And so I had it happen where an aggressive behavior. Didn’t get somebody kicked out of the venue But that was, that was a the toe like went and talked to the player was like, Hey, you you did this thing that was like you did. It was a literal pushing your chair. Too. Hard example, he pushing his chair

10:32:08 am – Daniel Lee:
Right.

10:32:09 am – Rob McKenzie:
too hard knocked over the decks. The table stormed out of the venue. He told I was like, I need to talk to you. He goes disqualify me, if you have to and I said, There. I disqualified him and he came back and he’s like, Why am I not in your tournament? And I said, You pushing this chair too hard and you said it was okay to DQ you. Figured that was your statement?

10:32:29 am – Daniel Lee:
Uh-huh.

10:32:29 am – Rob McKenzie:
and you weren’t coming back to the venue and he goes to the to and he’s like, I’m sorry, I’m having a rough weekend. It was a bad time and the Teo said,

10:32:35 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:32:36 am – Rob McKenzie:
Look. We don’t want you to enroll in any events if you’re having a bad enough weekend, that this is a problem, but you’re kind of trapped in the city far away from home, right?

10:32:43 am – Daniel Lee:
Right.

10:32:44 am – Rob McKenzie:
So you can’t play in any events we won’t let you play in another event. Um, we know you personally and we don’t think that you’re doing this to like make other players feel uncomfortable, but you can’t play in any of these tournaments. We won’t kick you out of the venue, unless something else goes on to make other people unhappy

10:32:59 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:32:59 am – Rob McKenzie:
But they wouldn’t let him enroll in anything else.

10:33:03 am – Daniel Lee:
Right. But hang out, talk to vendors or

10:33:03 am – Rob McKenzie:
Which

10:33:04 am – Daniel Lee:
whatever, right?

10:33:05 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah, it was it was the happy medium.

10:33:05 am – Daniel Lee:
And like, yeah.

10:33:06 am – Rob McKenzie:
medium.

10:33:07 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:33:08 am – Rob McKenzie:
It was the they were like we don’t we don’t want you to people on our tournaments. Do not threatened. You’re done with us for the weekend, but we are like you’re trapped at a city. 500 miles away from home. Like, I we’re not in, like, what you would. Just go sit out in the atrium right out in front of us. Anyways, because like, we’re not gonna call the police to escort you out. So yeah.

10:33:27 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. can think of two examples off think of two examples off Yeah. And I’ve definitely had a, I can think of two examples off top my head of times, when I have issued cheating one of which resulted in the player getting kicked out of the venue and one of which did not, and I actively recommended.

10:33:37 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep.

10:33:38 am – Daniel Lee:
Look Look, this one’s pretty close to the line. It’s entirely possible that this

10:33:41 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep.

10:33:43 am – Daniel Lee:
player did. This thing looked really bad unintentionally and I just, it’s too. It was too blatant for me to not be

10:33:50 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep.

10:33:52 am – Daniel Lee:
able to turn into, not pull the

10:33:53 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah. Yeah.

10:33:53 am – Daniel Lee:
trigger on the DQ.

10:33:54 am – Rob McKenzie:
I

10:33:54 am – Daniel Lee:
So I was like I’m disquality player for my tournament, I think, I think he should be able to register in other tournaments and play today. I think I think have a press upon him

10:34:01 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:34:02 am – Daniel Lee:
him. The importance of what happened here, and the player took that super well. So that, that worked out really well.

10:34:07 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep.

10:34:08 am – Daniel Lee:
Well then again, one of the first cheating situations. I was involved with at a large tournament. The player had added cards to their limited deck and so the tio, one of the stage staff was like Thank you for playing today, please leave our menu.

10:34:23 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep. I ended the that’s the, the other half of it is the to can do all sorts of things. So if you don’t feel like you’re getting enough traction from wizards on stuff like you caught a player cheating in a local and they played in rcq, it one of your local stores

10:34:38 am – Daniel Lee:
Mmm.

10:34:38 am – Rob McKenzie:
and they they and your, you’re pretty sure of it. You’re sure enough to dq them, you can go to the tio, bring them all the information they have to get all the DQ paperwork anyways and be like, can you just like not having play in your store for someone of time? Can you can you temporarily ban them or permanently ban them? I’ve seen that from cheating as well,

10:34:55 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, absolutely.

10:34:55 am – Rob McKenzie:
where it and that has a lot of consequences for a local player. And so if they know that being in these bad situations can get you like run out of stores or if you’re like in our area we’ve got a chain that are all owned by the same. The same store owner and he’s death on cheating. He hates it. And so, if you, if you get banned for

10:35:12 am – Daniel Lee:
Okay.

10:35:14 am – Rob McKenzie:
cheating, he will. Oftentimes be like, you can’t come into any my sources. Six months, I’m gonna tell my managers.

10:35:19 am – Daniel Lee:
Wow.

10:35:20 am – Rob McKenzie:
And so which is it’s like and we were all so because we’re we’re nice up here. The store owners will talk to each other and he’ll be like we ban this guy for cheating to the other stores in the area which has in in one circumstances lead to like Six different stores were like No no you can’t play like even locally in Commander nights for us right now.

10:35:37 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:35:38 am – Rob McKenzie:
Like don’t don’t do it. And so going to the toe with any of these problems again wider scope the to usually doesn’t care if you give out a game loss.

10:35:47 am – Daniel Lee:
Mmm.

10:35:48 am – Rob McKenzie:
The geocares a lot. If you think somebody is stealing from other players in the tournament,

10:35:53 am – Daniel Lee:
Absolutely.

10:35:53 am – Rob McKenzie:
um, or if they’re making people feel unsafe by actively threatening number doing physical stuff, that’s aggressive.

10:35:58 am – Daniel Lee:
Yes.

10:36:00 am – Rob McKenzie:
And so getting the tio involved in all of these very important, this is the, The Toe should know section basically.

10:36:05 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, absolutely.

10:36:06 am – Rob McKenzie:
Of like you had a player that was calling other players Racial slurs in your tournament. What would you like to do? And they’re like, Well, I’m just gonna kick him out of the store. I don’t care if you disqualified, they can’t do that.

10:36:15 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:36:15 am – Rob McKenzie:
Right. And you’re like, Great, I’ll drop them from the tournament now that you’ve given me that information and here is Mr. Racial Slur dude and You just sometimes sometimes that is the the very best solution that you can get. Um, But again, this section is this section is deliberately called out as the section where that stuff can happen. It’s not mixed up with other things, you’re not good. You’re probably not going to get somebody kicked out of a venue for entering a bad decklist or, you know, being late to a match, right?

10:36:45 am – Daniel Lee:
Right.

10:36:46 am – Rob McKenzie:
This is the kick out of the venue stuff.

10:36:47 am – Daniel Lee:
Exactly.

10:36:51 am – Rob McKenzie:
And so, as we talked about before, it’s everything is one direction you do this in fraction, stuff up top. And then you go down to the infraction and figure stuff out. You don’t be like man, this game is really screwed up. I want to give up a game loss.

10:37:06 am – Daniel Lee:
Mm-hmm.

10:37:06 am – Rob McKenzie:
If you were judging in 2006, um, you like, right there were.

10:37:11 am – Daniel Lee:
Which I was.

10:37:12 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah, there were like there were things that was like, this game is too screwed up. We just give out a game losses because the game states too, too. Damaged kind of things way, that way. so, if you’ve heard of these things from the lanes from the times of myth, that’s when it, Like you determine how screwed up. It is if it’s so screwed up, sometimes you just, you just end the game. We don’t do that anymore.

10:37:33 am – Daniel Lee:
And I was gonna say, if anyone, if

10:37:34 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:37:34 am – Daniel Lee:
anyone looks back and that’s like man, that’d be really useful tool. Like let me tell you, it was worse. What we have now is so much better. That was bad.

10:37:42 am – Rob McKenzie:
We yeah, we can fix most things. Now, the technology of actually, like

10:37:45 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:37:47 am – Rob McKenzie:
the way that we do gameplay errors. And if for game rules violations is so much better than we head back the way that we do game players and if for game rules violations is so much better than we head back in the

10:37:52 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, absolutely.

10:37:52 am – Rob McKenzie:
day. Um, rewinds our humongous piece of technology. And at in the list of partial fixes that we have also very very good.

10:38:01 am – Daniel Lee:
Yes, absolutely.

10:38:01 am – Rob McKenzie:
So if like, those allow us to fix a lot of the things that we thought were unfixable back in the day somebody, you know, brainstorming drawing for cards and putting two back or something. We might have determined a game loss at the time. But nowadays, we have tools that

10:38:13 am – Daniel Lee:
Mmm.

10:38:14 am – Rob McKenzie:
might allow us to just address that. might allow us to just address that

10:38:16 am – Daniel Lee:
Absolutely.

10:38:16 am – Rob McKenzie:
under under hidden card error, right?

10:38:17 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, take it from. Take it from two guys who’ve been doing this for a while.

10:38:20 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah, yes.

10:38:21 am – Daniel Lee:
What we’re doing. Now is so much better.

10:38:23 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes, the one thing that I I actually wish I had. If we’re gonna diverge a little is as a tracking penalty. Like okay, that but like honestly, we

10:38:31 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, fair enough.

10:38:34 am – Rob McKenzie:
Like okay that but like honestly we probably get that out too much and it’s a waste of our time because we’re gonna do anything

10:38:38 am – Daniel Lee:
Right, for sure.

10:38:41 am – Rob McKenzie:
your back pocket, from back in the days, like yeah, the two of you. Like one of you has a life pad with with all the life changes and what if he’s left out of the totally different set of life changes, What we don’t have a penalty for that nowadays, but we did, you know, 15 years ago.

10:38:54 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Right.

10:38:58 am – Rob McKenzie:
But when you actually go down to a two and infraction, it has some, it’s always structured the same way. I picked a short one that also has a bunch of stuff going on. I picked hardiness because like I said, I give this out all the time and most people will retarding this

10:39:12 am – Daniel Lee:
For sure.

10:39:14 am – Rob McKenzie:
like once and then just they’re like Yeah. I know how target this works. But this is actually a useful thing to review especially if you had judging something a little bit more. Elaborate, I had to deal with with unusual tardinesses at the nerd. Rage at the nerd rates trial weekend that I just did two weeks ago because

10:39:31 am – Daniel Lee:
Okay.

10:39:32 am – Rob McKenzie:
we gave out like some extensions to for people to resolve problems. They came up and they’re like, I think my cards are actually marked to us before the tournament are right

10:39:40 am – Daniel Lee:
Mmm.

10:39:41 am – Rob McKenzie:
before the round one and I was like well this is a tardiness issue. Actually very weirdly enough.

10:39:46 am – Daniel Lee:
I see, okay.

10:39:47 am – Rob McKenzie:
But the the type is up top of corresponding back to what you saw from the from the table of contents. Um, in the upper right, there’s always a box. That tells you what the default penalty is for this. And this is how bad a day will. This player have As a result of making this mistake because the the two default sections are mistakes, they’re not intention.

10:40:12 am – Daniel Lee:
Right.

10:40:12 am – Rob McKenzie:
And that’s the other thing that people don’t always realize is, those are unintentional stuff. The intentional stuff is all the bigger scope, I deliberately plan to mess up your tournament.

10:40:22 am – Daniel Lee:
Right.

10:40:22 am – Rob McKenzie:
This stuff in Unsporting.

10:40:24 am – Daniel Lee:
And we want to harshly deter that

10:40:25 am – Rob McKenzie:
Um, yeah.

10:40:27 am – Daniel Lee:
behavior.

10:40:28 am – Rob McKenzie:
Exactly. Um, but the first section of it is what mistake was actually made it just describes how they goof things up. Um, so this is chargedness is a very dry like, um, They didn’t complete task assigned to them or they didn’t show up to their match on time and like how it doesn’t apply. If the round began for the previous one, ended like it spells out all of the the stuff that you need to know. The first thing that you need to look at is if you’re not sure if this is correct. Is that very first paragraph? Um the the second in this case, the second paragraph is, it’s multiple paragraphs long of like all this different stuff of like how you could get to this

10:41:07 am – Daniel Lee:
Sure.

10:41:07 am – Rob McKenzie:
But then,

10:41:48 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:41:52 am – Rob McKenzie:
game games of magic don’t have any concept of clocks, right?

10:41:56 am – Daniel Lee:
Right.

10:41:56 am – Rob McKenzie:
They have no idea how long anything takes they. Talk about the game actions that you take not how long it takes.

10:42:02 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, time limits are only in the MTR.

10:42:03 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes.

10:42:03 am – Daniel Lee:
They’re not

10:42:04 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah. Exactly. And so anything dealing with time limits of how long should a player have to accomplish? Something is oh actually almost always going to touch tardiness in some way like you have slow play, you

10:42:15 am – Daniel Lee:
Sure.

10:42:15 am – Rob McKenzie:
have swallowing, but if they have a thing outside of the game where they’re trying to figure out how long they have tardiness is actually the place for it.

10:42:22 am – Daniel Lee:
Yep.

10:42:22 am – Rob McKenzie:
Up and so reading this section of knowing that you know how long they have to complete these outside of match tasks is important. And this is the kind of thing that you look at when you’re looking at these of like does this apply in any special circumstances? Does this have any weird caveats connected to it? After that, there’s always a letter to block of things. These you can sometimes skip to these and see is this might is this thing that I’m looking at exactly in these examples. These are the kinds of stuff that like just comes up all the time player arrives late players and their deckless late, a player loses their deck and cannot find replacement cards. A player sits it incorrect table and plays the wrong opponent. Because they weren’t where they were supposed to be when they were supposed to be. And these are the examples are usually, actually just the stuff that comes up 90% of the time.

10:43:06 am – Daniel Lee:
Right, for sure.

10:43:07 am – Rob McKenzie:
For this. And so if you have nowhere else to go, if you’re like, not sure and you don’t want to try to parse a paragraph, you could look at the examples and see, does Is this an exact example down in the examples for this? And because they’re called out as letter blocks. It’s really easy to see them really quick in the section.

10:43:21 am – Daniel Lee:
So, you mentioned earlier that, you remember the situation that had that you, it seemed like it was marked cards, but in turns out it was actually just trading this issue.

10:43:28 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep.

10:43:30 am – Daniel Lee:
This issue the examples will really

10:43:30 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep.

10:43:31 am – Daniel Lee:
help you build that intuition, as far as like, what kinds of things end up

10:43:35 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes.

10:43:36 am – Daniel Lee:
being here. So, like letter d, there is a great example, a player said, an incorrect table and plays the wrong opponent, put put that way when one player is like, Oh, I didn’t realize that you.

10:43:44 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep.

10:43:46 am – Daniel Lee:
Oh, you’re, you’re not the Andrew. I’m supposed to be playing against. I have this, I had something like that happen before. Um, it’s not immediately obvious in that situation that we’re dealing with a tardiness problem, right?

10:43:57 am – Rob McKenzie:
What?

10:43:57 am – Daniel Lee:
Like, it feels like it’s like, Oh, player is playing the wrong opponent. Is that did they break a game rule? Because they’re not playing the right player. So it’s that can be a little bit.

10:44:06 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep.

10:44:07 am – Daniel Lee:
Like you can talk yourself into some

10:44:07 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes.

10:44:09 am – Daniel Lee:
weird directions there.

10:44:10 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep.

10:44:10 am – Daniel Lee:
Well, because Well, because it’s here is this like, No that player didn’t show up for their match, their match was

10:44:15 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes.

10:44:15 am – Daniel Lee:
Their match was against this particular and they did not show up, they weren’t there for that. I’ve actually had a situation here where this is actually relatively recently at an rcq where Uh, two players. So a player only asked for their opponent by their first name, turns out that was the wrong player with

10:44:32 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep.

10:44:33 am – Daniel Lee:
that first name. And the players at this point, the tournament because the tables were kind of close together had like, sat in different places. So it wasn’t clear who had shown up for their matching who hadn’t. Uh-huh. So it was only I think the way they caught it was one player was Had like moved out of their companion app and had gone back to the through the screen, where the they record their game scores and a player noticed that his name wasn’t on there.

10:45:02 am – Rob McKenzie:
Mmm.

10:45:02 am – Daniel Lee:
And it was just like, wait, wait, hold on. Who are you supposed to be playing against and that that’s when we had to go. And so that one was a, that was a fun one to deal with.

10:45:11 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:45:12 am – Daniel Lee:
So So that was a

10:45:14 am – Rob McKenzie:
Let’s literally because with event link so something that you could sometimes kind of do in other tournament software, you could do this in melee, for instance is brake, pairings, and then exchange players. And um, you can’t do that eventually. So you you’re trapped in tardiness

10:45:28 am – Daniel Lee:
No. Yeah.

10:45:31 am – Rob McKenzie:
land. um, even if you even if you wanted to do something else, So, the Yeah, you’re you’re just giving out a bunch of game losses and maybe upgraded to match losses.

10:45:44 am – Daniel Lee:
For sure.

10:45:45 am – Rob McKenzie:
The philosophy, I deliberately I deliberately fuzzed out here because when you are at a tournament, you almost never want to read this section.

10:45:52 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, that’s it’s superfluous

10:45:53 am – Rob McKenzie:
When you yes.

10:45:54 am – Daniel Lee:
information at that point.

10:45:55 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah. Um this section should be like when you’re reviewing the IPG when you’re reading it for fun then you want to read the philosophy section because it’s super important to understand why this penalty exists.

10:46:07 am – Daniel Lee:
so,

10:46:07 am – Rob McKenzie:
But yeah.

10:46:08 am – Daniel Lee:
I will say There. I yeah. There’s a There’s a specific that’s if you are the head judge of a that’s if you are the head judge of a happened and you’re unclear about where

10:46:18 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes.

10:46:19 am – Daniel Lee:
where things where things should be falling. That’s where the philosophy, the

10:46:21 am – Rob McKenzie:
Exactly.

10:46:22 am – Daniel Lee:
The philosophy of these can can guide you to be like, okay, Weird thing has happened here. I’m not actually sure where this falls and this is unusual enough that there’s probably some amount of deviation that may need to happen

10:46:34 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:46:34 am – Daniel Lee:
here. This table has collapsed and all these players cards have gone

10:46:38 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes.

10:46:38 am – Daniel Lee:
everywhere. Like Okay, how do we fix this? Are there penalties that are appropriate in that case, probably not, but like it, but that’s the kind of thing we’re talking about things that you’re not gonna see happen

10:46:47 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:46:48 am – Daniel Lee:
across 20 tournaments, much less every week, right?

10:46:53 am – Rob McKenzie:
Right.

10:46:53 am – Daniel Lee:
So that’s where the philosophy is gonna be helpful because then you can read them and be like, okay, this is meant to handle problems like this. This is where it’s coming from.

10:47:01 am – Rob McKenzie:
Right.

10:47:02 am – Daniel Lee:
That doesn’t seem to fit this scenario. Let’s move on. Look at something else.

10:47:06 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes.

10:47:06 am – Daniel Lee:
So that’s when philosophy can be really helpful. If you are the head judge and you might be in deviation land.

10:47:11 am – Rob McKenzie:
Exactly. But like

10:47:12 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:47:14 am – Rob McKenzie:
i I had to train myself to just mostly like because I’ll read through a whole section like this where I’m trying to like figure out what I’m doing in an unusual circumstances or I’m like I’m not sure if I’m really correctly and I realized the

10:47:23 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:47:24 am – Rob McKenzie:
philosophy usually does not help me on the floor.

10:47:26 am – Daniel Lee:
No, for sure. Yeah, you want the definition of the

10:47:26 am – Rob McKenzie:
Like and like yeah, you want the

10:47:29 am – Daniel Lee:
penalty for that.

10:47:30 am – Rob McKenzie:
definitions, you want the breakdown you want to put it nut in a box recently, the The Philosophy section is very, very useful. If you’re trying to internalize these penalties, you remember them, the

10:47:39 am – Daniel Lee:
Yes, absolutely.

10:47:40 am – Rob McKenzie:
The only thing you remember from outside of tournament review is philosophy, you’re actually doing pretty well.

10:47:47 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:47:47 am – Rob McKenzie:
if the like, but on the actual floor, when you’re trying to like double check yourself, the philosophy is just it’s a bunch of space, so that you can Like link it into your head and understand why turnips are supposed to work, the way that they do, and why we’ve made these choices but it’s not in and of itself like a helpful section. Um,

10:48:08 am – Daniel Lee:
All right.

10:48:09 am – Rob McKenzie:
the the last block is additional remedy is so it’s the additional remedy for anything is you know, you gave out a game loss or a warning or whatever is there something else we do as well as And so the additional remedy is basically like um an additional cost to a spell, right?

10:48:27 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, a little bit.

10:48:27 am – Rob McKenzie:
Right. It’s it like like every infraction comes with a penalty. It comes. Every spell comes with a mana cost, right?

10:48:34 am – Daniel Lee:
Right.

10:48:35 am – Rob McKenzie:
stuff that you have to do in addition to doing that thing.

10:48:39 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, the these sections are the

10:48:40 am – Rob McKenzie:
Um,

10:48:43 am – Daniel Lee:
largest on the gameplay errors, because most of those are warnings.

10:48:45 am – Rob McKenzie:
yes.

10:48:46 am – Daniel Lee:
So there’s other fixes that we’re gonna want to do to address the

10:48:48 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes.

10:48:49 am – Daniel Lee:
situation.

10:48:50 am – Rob McKenzie:
Exactly there. They might be big convoluted like Mist Trigger has a like the opponent gets to make some choices and you know, we’re we’re gonna do these

10:48:58 am – Daniel Lee:
How long has it been since the

10:48:58 am – Rob McKenzie:
things.

10:48:59 am – Daniel Lee:
Since the trigger of is a certain

10:49:00 am – Rob McKenzie:
Right.

10:49:00 am – Daniel Lee:
kind of trigger? Then it doesn’t actually expire stuff like that.

10:49:04 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes. And so these might be huge or they might be like tardiness which is really short here. If the players are given the however, long the tardiness was the players get a time extension for because

10:49:13 am – Daniel Lee:
Yep.

10:49:13 am – Rob McKenzie:
tardiness is tardiness is usually player and the other player shouldn’t lose time as a result of that, one player being late.

10:49:20 am – Daniel Lee:
Correct.

10:49:20 am – Rob McKenzie:
Um, so the like the, the additional remedies oftentimes like the the thing that we do like the balance of equities, right? The, the game loss it happened for them being late but on top of that, it’s also might still might be unfair to the opponent. So we want to make sure that there’s an additional like Thing to balance about this one way or another, make it a little less than a game loss. Make it a little bit more however you want to view. It is like it’s game loss plus or game loss minus or whatever. Um,

10:49:49 am – Daniel Lee:
I’ve I have a fun thing here that I think

10:49:50 am – Rob McKenzie:
yeah.

10:49:52 am – Daniel Lee:
you’ll appreciate being from Minnesota. Uh, sometimes folks will refer to, as warning as, like, not really being a penalty, especially a warning for like, feeling anything game state that never gets upgraded and I, like

10:50:03 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep.

10:50:03 am – Daniel Lee:
to point out that with game losses. So I’m we’ve all seen this where a player gets a game loss and then they proceed to win the match 200 So they

10:50:11 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep.

10:50:12 am – Daniel Lee:
effectively didn’t get a penalty there and I I like to drop parallel

10:50:15 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:50:16 am – Daniel Lee:
to a concept from hockey where if a player is penalized and put into a penalty box, for a two, or five minutes or whatever, their opponents are considered to be on a power play, and oftentimes, that’s a great

10:50:27 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:50:28 am – Daniel Lee:
opportunity for them to score. So if the defense then is able to keep them from scoring that that’s called killing the penalty, where being down that player for the two or five minutes was not actual did not impact your score at all. It didn’t like give your score

10:50:44 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:50:45 am – Daniel Lee:
So in this case, the game loss is

10:50:46 am – Rob McKenzie:
Exactly.

10:50:47 am – Daniel Lee:
kind of a similar thing where Like Oh yeah if you go to oh then you kind of didn’t get a penalty in a big way.

10:50:53 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:50:53 am – Daniel Lee:
It’s still affects your tiebreakers but like it’s still a very similar

10:50:55 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:50:55 am – Daniel Lee:
concept. I thought that was. but,

10:50:58 am – Rob McKenzie:
It’s it is yeah.

10:51:00 am – Daniel Lee:
and I do appreciate the hockey reference there.

10:51:02 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah. the the other thing is the upgrade after additional remedy, if you if

10:51:08 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:51:09 am – Rob McKenzie:
sometimes this penalty is worse penalty, um, then you and you need to bump it up a notch, because in this case, they were tardy for more than 10 minutes, then then you upgrade it

10:51:17 am – Daniel Lee:
Hmm.

10:51:18 am – Rob McKenzie:
to fully ending to match and there, there’s a handful of these notably

10:51:20 am – Daniel Lee:
No.

10:51:22 am – Rob McKenzie:
notably with deck problem, and marked cards both have upgrades in them that you should be aware of, right.

10:51:28 am – Daniel Lee:
Now.

10:51:29 am – Rob McKenzie:
Um, and so their their circumstances where those are usually warnings like nine times out of 10, they’re probably a warning and then sometimes sometimes things are bad enough. Where either we feel like the opponent has it been very disadvantaged from a situation or we feel like the to deter them from trying to get this advantage that they could get we

10:51:48 am – Daniel Lee:
Mm-hmm.

10:51:49 am – Rob McKenzie:
We want to, we want to just say you can’t get any advantage. The game is gonna end.

10:51:54 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:51:54 am – Rob McKenzie:
Um, and so there’s the upgrade is the very last thing and every penalty that has an upgrade, if it doesn’t have an upgrade, it’s not the last thing. If it’s always the same penalty, then it like failure behind game states. Always a warning. There’s no upgrade on it ever.

10:52:09 am – Daniel Lee:
Mmm.

10:52:09 am – Rob McKenzie:
And so there’s there’s no upgrade section in failure to maintain game state.

10:52:13 am – Daniel Lee:
Right, it’s important.

10:52:14 am – Rob McKenzie:
Um, so yeah.

10:52:16 am – Daniel Lee:
It is important to note that I current tardiness that this the screenshot is taken from a slightly older version of the IPG because this one is missed.

10:52:23 am – Rob McKenzie:
This is the February one. Yeah.

10:52:24 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, missing the missing the downgrade.

10:52:27 am – Rob McKenzie:
Oh yes, true. There is a downgrade to tardiness as well. It also actually just might be scrolled off the screen from when I took the screenshot.

10:52:32 am – Daniel Lee:
Oh yeah, possible.

10:52:33 am – Rob McKenzie:
So but yeah this So but yeah this is also So but yeah, this is also where downgrades will will happen where the tardiness does. Have a I have a downgrade as well, but this is also. The point is like, we’ve internalized, this we know to know this really well, but one of the things with reading the IPG, a lot is like, I didn’t think about that because I’m used to tardy does not have a dog, right? Because I didn’t have a downgrade for years and years.

10:52:57 am – Daniel Lee:
Right, for sure.

10:52:57 am – Rob McKenzie:
And so this is the other thing to review is if things have changed and so there’s actually a change log section at the end of the IPG. So if you’re if you’re reading the IPG and finding out, you know, what’s changed in the last year, the last three or four revisions,

10:53:11 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:53:11 am – Rob McKenzie:
Are listed in the CHANGELOG.

10:53:13 am – Daniel Lee:
It’s a, it’s the zero to zero with a heart and 10 has actually become

10:53:17 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:53:18 am – Daniel Lee:
codified, right?

10:53:18 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah, has been coming.

10:53:18 am – Daniel Lee:
That heart is exactly one minute.

10:53:20 am – Rob McKenzie:
yeah, the heart is listed as one minute but it’s like close enough, just give you some extra time, like you made a good faith effort in my line is always

10:53:26 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Yeah.

10:53:27 am – Rob McKenzie:
line is always been. They were making a good faith effort, they were making every attempt to get to their seat and like I, I definitely had players that showed up in under a minute that I didn’t give that to back before. It was a thing because like, I made a circumstance where player like we were at a, we were at a hotel ballroom, we had two vendors off to the side. turn. Every player in the room was in my There were no random spectators. And so, in like, round two, I

10:53:53 am – Daniel Lee:
Wow.

10:53:56 am – Rob McKenzie:
announced Parents pairings went up, everybody got to their seats, I looked around there was nobody trying to get to their seats. I said Begin the round and the player looked at me, saw me doing that, like made eye contact with me from across the room while he was browsing stuff at a vendor. And he kind of meandered over to the last seat and then sat down. And as opponents like Judge, my opponent was not here and it’s like 45 seconds into the round. Like I don’t think you were trying to get to the tournament on time

10:54:21 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:54:21 am – Rob McKenzie:
Everybody else in the room was here. You looked at me when I when I looked around to see if there was anybody still trying to get to their seats, we looked at me when I started the round and then you kind of meandered over, I don’t think you’re making an

10:54:31 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:54:31 am – Rob McKenzie:
effort to like to start this on time.

10:54:33 am – Daniel Lee:
Clearly that player is not making

10:54:34 am – Rob McKenzie:
I’m gonna give you, yeah.

10:54:36 am – Daniel Lee:
turn. It’s not making that a priority.

10:54:38 am – Rob McKenzie:
Right? Because he said, Oh, I thought I had like three minutes to get to this match and I’m like that’s, that’s never been policy and

10:54:45 am – Daniel Lee:
Pit. Yeah.

10:54:46 am – Rob McKenzie:
And also you were just kind of browsing a vendor like I whatever like if you would have been running in from the bathroom it will in under three minutes I would have given it to you. If you would have said, I don’t know,

10:54:56 am – Daniel Lee:
Right.

10:54:56 am – Rob McKenzie:
Things started really fast other than like whatever right?

10:54:58 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, they’re doing there can be a little bit of like, hey, like make it

10:55:00 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:55:02 am – Daniel Lee:
clear that you’re trying to hold up your end of the bargain here.

10:55:05 am – Rob McKenzie:
Right. And that’s the other thing with the With the 10 minute stuff from above, like a non-tournament thing that they need to accomplish, like trying to find cards because they lost cards. For instance, as mentioned the nerd rage. We had a couple of circumstances like this where a player came up to us and it’s like, I think my cards are marked that I need to receive It is two minutes before the tournament and I was like, Yeah, you have until 10 minutes into the first round.

10:55:30 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, there you go. And they’ve they’ve talked to a judge

10:55:31 am – Rob McKenzie:
Right. I’m yeah.

10:55:34 am – Daniel Lee:
judge too. There’s a

10:55:34 am – Rob McKenzie:
Exactly.

10:55:35 am – Daniel Lee:
There’s a player for a judge for a delay for a for a judge for a delay for a There’s a player received permission for a judge for a delay for a legitimate task. There you go.

10:55:38 am – Rob McKenzie:
Exactly.

10:55:38 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:55:39 am – Rob McKenzie:
They They made a good faith effort. They came up right before the event was supposed to start. They, they figured it out, but they were trying to figure it out. Or we had a player later in the tournament where they had gotten a mark cards penalty, the previous round and then we had helped them recently, just try to try to get the match ongoing because they take in a game loss for this, right? And so we’re like we don’t want to give them. We’re already giving them like at that point with this whole trying to figure out how mark things were. It was gonna be like a 15 minute time extension and we’re like, we don’t want to give them We want to give them the minimal possible.

10:56:10 am – Daniel Lee:
Okay, right.

10:56:10 am – Rob McKenzie:
So like So like you So like you go buy some sleeps quick will deep sleep your library and then we’ll help you recently really quick so that we could save, you know, three minutes, which actually made a difference to round turnover.

10:56:19 am – Daniel Lee:
Excellent.

10:56:19 am – Rob McKenzie:
And like they they had no objection to it. They were glad to have help with it and then they came up to us and were like, Hey ah, I’m missing a card from my main deck I need to go like I need to go purchase this and I’m like Yeah. Go do it. You have 10 minutes to figure this out with a vendor.

10:56:37 am – Daniel Lee:
Right.

10:56:38 am – Rob McKenzie:
Like I didn’t even like I was like I don’t want to penalize you for this um in so they like I like they had they had reasons to give this tardiness or to get this tardiness. So like a lot of it is to train your players to to talk with you. Train them to have good faith, interactions. And just like just like with the game stuff you want them communicating with their opponent really well for the tournament stuff them communicating with the toe and the judge really well solves, almost all these problems.

10:57:06 am – Daniel Lee:
Absolutely.

10:57:06 am – Rob McKenzie:
And so, a lot of a lot of the problems that can come up in in games are solved by good communication. A lot of the tournament problems can be solved by good communication.

10:57:14 am – Daniel Lee:
And turns out some amount of the player problems can be solved by communication as well. As long as it’s like constructive

10:57:18 am – Rob McKenzie:
Okay.

10:57:20 am – Daniel Lee:
right?

10:57:21 am – Rob McKenzie:
Right.

10:57:21 am – Daniel Lee:
So we we’ve only got a few minutes

10:57:22 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:57:22 am – Daniel Lee:
left here. So, were there. Any other big important points we wanted to hit?

10:57:27 am – Rob McKenzie:
This was they to talk about the philosophy section. The other thing that I want to call it for the philosophy section was That’s important for unsporting comic penalties. That’s the other thing that that’s philosophy is very important for. So when you’re reviewing and you want

10:57:38 am – Daniel Lee:
For sure.

10:57:39 am – Rob McKenzie:
to know whether or not something is supposed to be major or minor that gray area is kind of codified at the philosophy of those sections.

10:57:47 am – Daniel Lee:
Absolutely. Yeah.

10:57:47 am – Rob McKenzie:
So when you’re trying to fit something in fit it in, based on the philosophy of it, the USC has examples. But people are much more complicated than four bullet points. Right.

10:57:57 am – Daniel Lee:
Oh, yes, absolutely.

10:57:57 am – Rob McKenzie:
And so the Philosophy section gives you like guidelines for how to fit people into these like very kind of loose boxes.

10:58:05 am – Daniel Lee:
Mm-hmm.

10:58:05 am – Rob McKenzie:
Um, and so yeah.

10:58:06 am – Daniel Lee:
We have we need we need Barbosa on here to say the more what you call guidelines and actual rules.

10:58:12 am – Rob McKenzie:
Like exactly. And a lot of the time it is just A lot of these times. So, these rules are When I think about the IPG, when I think about comp rules, I think about the reason that they exist, and I try to work backwards, right? What did we want to happen?

10:58:26 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

10:58:27 am – Rob McKenzie:
Um, One thing that I heard from a pro to her head judge was If I had my way, I would run the pro tour at regular rules enforcement. I trust everybody here to make reasonable decisions about how to resolve problems. and that’s because everybody has internalized these philosophy sections of why we want to do

10:58:44 am – Daniel Lee:
Right.

10:58:45 am – Rob McKenzie:
particular things in particular ways.

10:58:46 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, I I had a had a great example

10:58:47 am – Rob McKenzie:
Um, yeah.

10:58:49 am – Daniel Lee:
here. I’ve only got a couple of minutes left, so if I can, I can give one good example for this. So this is there’s a thing where it’s come up, where a player was issued a USC, major, for particular behavior, in a match towards their opponent. And that player that’s the only match that they lost, so they still managed to make top eight. And they were paired against the player, the same player again.

10:59:11 am – Rob McKenzie:
The same layer again.

10:59:13 am – Daniel Lee:
And so it was a question of wait. But the point of USC. Major, the reason it’s a match loss,

10:59:21 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:59:21 am – Daniel Lee:
it’s not so much that like it’s partially because we want to really discourage the behavior. But it’s also so that they don’t have to deal with each other, right?

10:59:29 am – Rob McKenzie:
What if if somebody calls you

10:59:30 am – Daniel Lee:
And

10:59:31 am – Rob McKenzie:
If if somebody calls you, something deeply problematically insulting, you don’t, you don’t want to be in a situation where you have to choose between the conceding that match.

10:59:38 am – Daniel Lee:
Correct.

10:59:39 am – Rob McKenzie:
It, did not play that player.

10:59:40 am – Daniel Lee:
So if I, if I recall correctly that

10:59:41 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

10:59:42 am – Daniel Lee:
particular situation, the the player like the player who who was on the receiving end of the poor behavior was like, You know, we’ve had a few rounds, I’m feeling better about it, I’m okay with this, I’m okay with playing against this player and the

10:59:53 am – Rob McKenzie:
Okay.

10:59:53 am – Daniel Lee:
other and the other person was like I do really understand that was super inappropriate.

10:59:57 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep.

10:59:58 am – Daniel Lee:
It’s not gonna happen again. So that ended up being. Okay?

11:00:00 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep.

11:00:00 am – Daniel Lee:
But it was a But it was a that was a rough one. That was I I was at a bit of a loss

11:00:03 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah. Yeah.

11:00:04 am – Daniel Lee:
on how to handle that for a little bit because that was scary.

11:00:08 am – Rob McKenzie:
Well, and this is also. One of the things is Players are on your side, almost all the time. Like what you want to do is convince them that you’re on the same team with them, but you were the whole time you want a fair tournament?

11:00:18 am – Daniel Lee:
Hmm, exactly.

11:00:20 am – Rob McKenzie:
want to fund tournament, and you want it in most players when they’re like, Oh, I really goofed. This up will be on the like, apologetic. I want to fix things foot because

11:00:30 am – Daniel Lee:
Yes.

11:00:30 am – Rob McKenzie:
people are generally good and nice. Like there’s some jerks there, but

11:00:32 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, largely. Yeah.

11:00:34 am – Rob McKenzie:
yeah, it I would say as a whole out out of all like out of all the people But yeah, it I would say, as a whole out of all like, out of all the people they interact with like, most people want to do positive like good But yeah, it I would say, as a whole out of all like, out of all the people, they interact with like, most people want to do positive like good interactions with there with the other players at the tournament. and so, if you could like the

11:00:47 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah.

11:00:49 am – Rob McKenzie:
communication was so important, right?

11:00:51 am – Daniel Lee:
Absolutely. Yeah.

11:00:52 am – Rob McKenzie:
And so it just having like sometimes I’ll sit down at a match and I’ll be like This game has gone really badly. This game was violation. What feels fair here to you, like like is This, is this really bad and even it at a at a competitive thing, I’d be like Do you feel like this fix is fair to you like Do you feel like you were happy with this this interaction in part because that draws out the players and gets them to tell you exactly what because they might be bugged about that. They’re like your fix doesn’t take into account. The fat that he had a fetch land that he fetched with in the middle of his a middle of a spell sequence and be

11:01:24 am – Daniel Lee:
Hmm.

11:01:24 am – Rob McKenzie:
like, Oh, I didn’t know that.

11:01:27 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, nobody mentioned that during

11:01:27 am – Rob McKenzie:
Right.

11:01:28 am – Daniel Lee:
the entire investigation.

11:01:29 am – Rob McKenzie:
And I mentioned this, yeah. I missed it during the during the rewind. We asked questions about everything you just lost over this. I thought this land was always there.

11:01:35 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, Yeah.

11:01:35 am – Rob McKenzie:
Um, and so like being able to ask players this question of like Does something feel fair, sometimes like like open up more like I feel it’s unfair and this is why players don’t always know what they want to fix to me, that’s our job, right? But players, do know when things

11:01:48 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, absolutely.

11:01:50 am – Rob McKenzie:
don’t feel right. And so listen to that and like take it to serious consideration and get real data from them on it. So

11:01:57 am – Daniel Lee:
All right. All right, we are at a time here. So let’s go ahead and wrap this up. Thank you so much, Rob for joining us Rob for joining us here.

11:02:05 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

11:02:05 am – Daniel Lee:
This is a really, it’s really, it’s been really useful to look at how the IPG is structured. And to see that there’s some very specific ways that the that the things are laid out and that the structure of the document can actually help us understand the

11:02:16 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

11:02:16 am – Daniel Lee:
document, a lot better.

11:02:18 am – Rob McKenzie:
Structure is really important for a lot of this stuff. So,

11:02:23 am – Daniel Lee:
Cool. Oh, thanks again Rob, we appreciate. Having you we appreciate your time. Appreciate having you on here Cool. Oh, thanks. Having you we appreciate your time. Appreciate having you on here viewers, go ahead and join us tomorrow morning at same time. Here at 10 am Pacific time. We’re gonna have Jeff Foster on who’s gonna talk about running digital conferences. So if you’ve ever

11:02:38 am – Rob McKenzie:
I’m really excited about that, okay?

11:02:40 am – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. And Jeff really knows what he’s talking about when it comes to

11:02:43 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yeah.

11:02:44 am – Daniel Lee:
digital. digital, like digital like digital, like just digital general. He’s one of the more one of the

11:02:49 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yes.

11:02:50 am – Daniel Lee:
He’s one of the more one of the larger experts in the program of it. So yeah.

11:02:52 am – Rob McKenzie:
Yep.

11:02:52 am – Daniel Lee:
So if you’ve ever thought about conference or you just want to little wondering running your own digital people behind the curtain. Join us tomorrow morning at 10 AM and thanks very much for joining. Have a great day everyone.