10:00:58 am – Jonah Kellman:
Good morning, good afternoon and good evening. I’m Jonah. Your logistics, champion joined this week Byron from and John Vordabergen. I hope I pronounce both of those. Those are some fun names to say. We’re gonna be talking about event, link and companion. Scorekeeping mostly for regular rules enforcement level lunch but also a little bit of competitive and how we can work with the new tournament software later this week tomorrow. And Friday. Daniel Lee is gonna have two. Fantastic guests on Thursday at 3pm Pacific. He’s going to be talking with Toby, Elliott, on current events. Talking about policy and that sort of thing. And then on Friday at 10 am Pacific, He’s gonna be talking with Jeff Morrow with rules lessons from other games. Now, let’s get started with the two of you. How long who are you? Why are you here? How long have you been involved in magic and looks start with you?
10:01:53 am – Aruna Prem:
So hi, I’m Aruna. I’m level three from Italy. Well, I was born there but I got certified in Sweden and I was judging around Europe. And now I live in Spain. I started playing magic with High Sage. and then, as many others, I had many years of stop and then I went back when I was at the university, And then I moved to Sweden and I got certified there. And then back to Italy’s playing, Sorry.
10:02:27 am – Jonah Kellman:
Circles and circles around Europe.
10:02:29 am – Aruna Prem:
Yeah. Yeah, basically. kids, so I prefer to stay here stay here Yeah. Yeah, basically, now I got three kids, so I prefer to stay here a little bit longer.
10:02:35 am – Jonah Kellman:
That makes sense. When did you start judging?
10:02:38 am – Aruna Prem:
It was 2012.
10:02:41 am – Jonah Kellman:
Okay. That was. Right around in a straw.
10:02:48 am – Aruna Prem:
It was ravnica. The first treatment?
10:02:50 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:02:51 am – Aruna Prem:
10:02:52 am – Jonah Kellman:
Cool. And John. have you been involved in magic? How long have you been involved in magic? Cool. And John, how about you? How long have you been involved in magic? And when did you get started with judging?
10:02:59 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
I started playing back in original. In Estrada, back in early 2012. And I became a judge in 2017 right around the middle of the year. In, I believe it was in July. And then I started working in event management and Large events in 2019, and then started working large events in 2018.
10:03:29 am – Jonah Kellman:
Cool. So that actually leads us nicely into the next question of, How did you get involved in invent management and Since we’re going to be talking about event languages, more of the score keeping side of things and not necessarily so much, the judge facing side of things. How have you become more involved with that and keeping the event on track in that way for both of you? Well, let’s start with you, John.
10:03:56 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
I started out by just being more curious about event logistics and talking with tournament organizers, and I ended up applying to work for organized play at Star City Games and I have been doing that since I got the job in 2019 and have gained. Infinite amount of experience. With scorekeeping and event logistics and it is one of my favorite things to talk about.
10:04:28 am – Jonah Kellman:
That that’s good that’s very good. because otherwise this would be very But you want to talk about that disappointing for you and Aruna. How about yourself?
10:04:37 am – Aruna Prem:
Well, for me, it’s just a hobby. It’s not it’s not my main job.
10:04:41 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:04:41 am – Aruna Prem:
I’m, I’m a research engineer and I haven’t management. Well, I realized GPS, I mean I was playing magic and then when I went to play a GP I liked it was a blast. I love it. I decided to be a judge. I decided to judge peace and larger events in general with teams and without judges. And and there the I really like logistics there so and Why are things done in a given way? And what are the effects of I think on another and stuff like that? That’s how I got involved.
10:05:14 am – Jonah Kellman:
Fantastic. So, as mentioned, we are going to be focusing on EVENTLINK and the companion app today, but what other software scorekeeping software have you used or are familiar with, Aruna, let’s start with you just so we can get that base of knowledge out there.
10:05:34 am – Aruna Prem:
So I’m not a scorekeeper mainly. I prefer to be on the floor and but I have used Wizard event report, the the old on older, softwares, and event link. And, and I mean, I Mmm. I was basically here to talk about the effect on of the software, on the
10:05:59 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:06:01 am – Aruna Prem:
10:06:02 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:06:03 am – Aruna Prem:
Scorpion is not my main focus.
10:06:05 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:06:06 am – Aruna Prem:
10:06:07 am – Jonah Kellman:
And John. What about you? What? Software are you familiar with?
10:06:10 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
I have a good amount of familiarity with Wizards event reporter as well. A little bit of experience with Walter and Dcir, but primarily event, link, and where are my two main scorekeeping programs that I have primarily worked with at both store front events and large events.
10:06:35 am – Jonah Kellman:
Cool. And for those who don’t know, Walters Wizards Wizards, large tournament, reporter and dcir is DCI. Reporter DCI stands for something. I think it’s Duelist Convocation International, which is not at all. Meaningful in any case, Huh? Before we dive into the details of how event line can change the dynamics of event. Let’s take a broader. Look at EVENTLINK, what? Offenses of. Ventlink Ideal for and Companion Ideal for in your experience. I’ve not actually used event link a whole lot as a judge and so I don’t have the familiarity of where it is great and where it starts to break down a little bit because every software works for different type and scale of event, you don’t want to use Wizards. Large tournament reporter for an eight player event. It’s not built for that and it’ll be a little clunky and So what’s the best use case for event link?
10:07:36 am – Aruna Prem:
from the floor point of view, if you
10:07:38 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:07:38 am – Aruna Prem:
want, I can start I
10:07:39 am – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah. What’s that?
10:07:40 am – Aruna Prem:
I’ve been using Givenlink tournament like, from real small regular tournaments to like 400 ish players competitive tournaments. And it’s fine in all these range. When you go like to few hundred players. There are some behaviors which like it starts to be slower. Something functionalities tend to take time for prayers and for you to see the results. but still, it’s overall is fine and it’s saves you or sometime with respect to before I would say,
10:08:16 am – Jonah Kellman:
Saving time is always good.
10:08:16 am – Aruna Prem:
The. Yeah. One thing is that there are some kind of events that you cannot use event link for.
10:08:24 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:08:25 am – Aruna Prem:
Like you cannot use it for 14 events.
10:08:28 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:08:29 am – Aruna Prem:
You cannot use it if you have buys. and you cannot use it as far as I know if you have different formats, like if you have like sealed and then draft or something like that, I think you cannot manage it with everything.
10:08:46 am – Jonah Kellman:
What do you mean?
10:08:46 am – Aruna Prem:
Am I right?
10:08:47 am – Jonah Kellman:
Because it’ll Because it’ll keep the pairings you play against like players in your against, like players in the pairings separate, it won’t let you play against like players in your against, like players in Because it’ll keep the pairings separate. It won’t let you play against, like, players in your own pot or something like that. It won’t do a draft later in an event.
10:08:57 am – Aruna Prem:
Yes, or I don’t know how to do it.
10:08:59 am – Jonah Kellman:
That’s fair. That’s fair. John, do you know if that’s possible?
10:09:05 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
Off at the top of my head.
10:09:06 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:09:06 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
I do not I believe that if you were to cut two top, eight of an event, If it was limited, it will cut to cut. The top eight will be a draft, but it won’t follow MTR policy of Being random, seings it will seat and pair by seed.
10:09:32 am – Jonah Kellman:
Okay, that’s good to know.
10:09:33 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
I ran it. I ran into that recently with an rcq that had a limited that was a limited rcq. and that was, problematic for the head judge to figure out a solution for
10:09:50 am – Jonah Kellman:
What did they end up doing? Do you remember?
10:09:55 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
I believe what we ended up doing, was seeding them randomly and just reporting who the winner was. So once once we got the winner, That is what we cared about on the event link side.
10:10:08 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:10:11 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
At. At that event.
10:10:15 am – Jonah Kellman:
Right. You were able to construct a topic based on what tournament policy requires. and then, Submitted the closest result to that possible focusing on who won.
10:10:29 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:10:30 am – Jonah Kellman:
That makes a lot of sense.
10:10:33 am – Aruna Prem:
Here in Europe, we had a big event which was day one limited and then they too draft which parts different
10:10:39 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:10:39 am – Aruna Prem:
parts, and they ended up using
10:10:40 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:10:41 am – Aruna Prem:
different software. The Mtg milli
10:10:44 am – Jonah Kellman:
Right, that makes sense.
10:10:45 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
okay, that makes sense.
10:10:47 am – Jonah Kellman:
And I know a lot of like invitational style tournaments will be the first three or three rounds are draft and then you cut to constructed for four or five rounds whether it be the pro tour or other circuits have their own invitation or they’re like Yeah, we want to test both limited and
10:11:02 am – Aruna Prem:
10:11:03 am – Jonah Kellman:
constructed and Perhaps for an event like that something other than event link because it’s focused primarily on these single format tournaments. Now, John the same question that we talked to Aruna about what events is eventlink ideal for While it can fit this rather broad range? Is there a particular area where you think it’s best suited?
10:11:32 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
Personally, I have found that event link is best in storefront events, whether that be for pre-release, competitive REO events in in the storefront, like, Rcqs or even just your normal f&m, It is actually quite a good software for these types of events.
10:11:56 am – Jonah Kellman:
And what way do you think it stands out as particularly good for these events?
10:12:01 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
Players being able to get pairings immediately right to their phone without needing to use paper. Pairings As well as.
10:12:15 am – Aruna Prem:
An aggregation. So sorry, without that migration as
10:12:17 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:12:18 am – Aruna Prem:
Without that migration as well because before we had the bearing board and then everyone was going there and now you are whatever and you are notified and
10:12:26 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
Mmm, exactly. That is well, getting notifications about your parents going up. Standings becoming live. Moving to the next round. That is all. Very, very well done in the companion app and it makes life significantly easier for your scorekeeper for your head judge or floor, judges in local events. It is quite good in that regard, at least from my perspective of things.
10:12:57 am – Jonah Kellman:
Awesome. So Let’s get started with the start of event or the beginning of around. Let’s talk about pairings and standings. As we’ve already touched upon those. How does event link change? The litigistics around pairings when and why should you still use paper pairings should you use paper, pairings or should you just use a ventlink all the time everywhere because you don’t have that big crowd and all that. Aruna, let’s start with you and the practical effect it has for you out on the floor.
10:13:30 am – Aruna Prem:
So, first of all, I would like to say that you got the option, you can print bearings and use the whole fashioned pairing board and stick with it. And saying that I usually go to torments with, with my son, he has not got the phone and there’s something that you can take into account. Like if there is network coverage, if people got the phone or not, you can have a monitor where you publish the pairing eventually but it’s not the best to me. But keeping into account how many players will need this information is the the key point to me. I mean if you have three players that are start at every round come to the scorekeeper and say where I’m playing that’s completely fine to me. If you have 50 that’s not fine, you know like to print things. and then the other thing that the changes to me with respect to pairings Is that? When you make the bearings when in, when you start around, you want to be sure that that everything is fine before and with the other software, you like start around and then something comes up like a result is wrong or something like that, you can fix it. Now, you really want to be sure that everything is fine before paintings. And these are the two changes to me.
10:14:52 am – Jonah Kellman:
John anything to add on that.
10:14:55 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
Just like a Runa said with having the option to print paper, pairings is a huge benefit like what other while? Pairings will go to the player’s phone. Say somebody doesn’t have data or does not have a smartphone. They won’t be able to get access to that. So they will have to come up to the scorekeeper To check where they are sitting. And while that is fine if you know you reach a critical mass of players that don’t have that being able to print paper pairings and having them posted somewhere in the room is a very big benefit to have, as well as You want because of Some restrictions with event link, making sure that things are correct, go up before going into the next round. Is very important, so making sure that standings are available. Is a? Great way to ensure that.
10:16:09 am – Aruna Prem:
Maybe we can spend a little bit on
10:16:09 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:16:11 am – Aruna Prem:
that if you want.
10:16:12 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:16:12 am – Aruna Prem:
We are about it. So, So standings are available to players in companion. and eventually if there is some coverage issue and the same network issue or phone issue or something that you can still print standings, And then as a hijaja usually announced, like, before making the parents like, Please everybody, check your your score. And if it’s fine, we will proceed to a new pairings in like two minutes and that’s usually fine. Why? Because because you before and we with other softwares like you can you hold like remade tables by hand and swap players and like correct the result of the previous round. And now you can but you have to do everything again and you cannot like if you have to change the result of the previous round or more coupling of the previous round, you have to do to redo the whole round and you cannot ensure that other tables are the same. It’s everything random game.
10:17:16 am – Jonah Kellman:
And that’s very impactful on the player. Experience, esp. Really, especially for larger events getting everybody up and moving around is something that you very much want to avoid.
10:17:26 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
Hmm. Yes. Agreed.
10:17:30 am – Jonah Kellman:
A Question for the Two of You. So back when we were using just paper pairings at large, large tournaments, you generally had a pairings board for roughly every 100 to 200 players. And you’d have between two and four sheets of paper. Ideally For each pairing sport. So not too many crowded around a single pairing sport. Now, with more players getting their pairings from their phone, do you think that ratio of pairings boards to players is correct? What do you think? Because I’ve seen some events where we have five, pairings boards for 500 players. We put up two sheets of paper on each board and three people, go to each pairings board because everybody’s getting their Pairings on their phone. Do we need to spread things out that much? Or is that just left over from what we were used to?
10:18:36 am – Aruna Prem:
And you’re one, which one to answer.
10:18:38 am – Jonah Kellman:
I as soon as you have an answer, feel free to answer it. Looks like John might be thinking a little bit so if you have not, I’d
10:18:43 am – Aruna Prem:
10:18:44 am – Jonah Kellman:
love to hear it.
10:18:45 am – Aruna Prem:
So, my first experience with Darling was directly 400 players tournament. And
10:18:50 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:18:52 am – Aruna Prem:
400 players is a lot and sometime
10:18:54 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:18:55 am – Aruna Prem:
early everlink and companion. I don’t know which for this it gets low and you send pairings and it takes time to get to the early, every link and companion. I don’t know which for this it gets low and you send pairings and it takes time to get to the players. And I was told also there was a release event in that same weekend so I was told this may slow down things, I don’t know if What what’s the load? Balancing policy in server and eventually take it into account if you are judging somewhere, And what we did, there was we started we, we stick the Tournament code, that’s something that everyone and need to enter. So it was we had paying board set up. And then, we were adjusting. And we ended up having two parents boards for 400 players. This was fine to us. Keeping into account that we had some issues with the player trying to know which they were when they were sitting at because of the slowness and number of players other events in parallel. And stuff like that.
10:20:05 am – Jonah Kellman:
That makes sense. John do you have something to add?
10:20:05 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
Um, yes, something that I have personally found is that? Since moving to digital. For pairings. Most people are just going to be using their phone and there’s going to be a very small ratio at least here in the States that I have noticed. That most players will just use their phone and be able to find their table with ease. Whether that is at large events or storefront events and Maybe. One to two people. Per set of say 20 will end up going to the pairings board to check or maybe it’s just like, Hey, go and double check your paper, pairings to make sure that you are on the pairings if say you don’t for some reason, see it on your phone.
10:21:01 am – Jonah Kellman:
Right. I know a lot of people when they get the same table by chances they had last around, they’re like I want to check the paper pairings because I don’t trust technology at
10:21:09 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:21:10 am – Jonah Kellman:
Well, it must be lying to me. Gave me the same number twice in RL. That’s not how random tables work.
10:21:14 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:21:16 am – Jonah Kellman:
I guess it’s also important. Even if you’re expecting fewer players to go to any individual, pairings board when things go, well, things do not always go well and so if There’s an issue with Internet or mobile data and people aren’t able to access their phones. Having those paper, pairings already spread out around a larger number of pairings boards means you don’t have 400 people clumped around one pairing sport.
10:21:46 am – Aruna Prem:
10:21:47 am – Jonah Kellman:
Yes. Or the story. I’ve definitely seen some events where people are like we just can’t access this. So we’re just gonna have a queue of 50. People being, like, my name is Jonah. What table am I at next person? My name is John, what Yes. I’ve definitely seen some events where people are like we just can’t where people are like we just can’t access this. So we’re just gonna have a queue of 50. People being, like, my name is Jonah. What table am I at next person? My name is John, what table am I am? Like, we have more than one, John, and one Jonah. In this event. I need a last name. Sometimes a little bit more. That’s not situation coming from the chat. Somebody just asked, Is there a threshold for Eventling when it comes to number of registered players? When would you consider is there a number of players where you would consider switching to another scorekeeping software or you comfortable using melee for? Tournaments of all the event sizes that you’ve run so far. Let’s start with you Arena.
10:22:38 am – Aruna Prem:
As I said that we had like 400 more or less players with some side events as well and it was more or less fine. and I cannot ensure that as long as was due to the size of the tournament or the release event in in parallel, or a In my experience, this was the biggest tournament and it was still fine. I was still advise it because you reduce time with the paper and With the results as well. So yeah we still advice I think.
10:23:12 am – Jonah Kellman:
That makes sense and John. You comfortable going above 400?
10:23:19 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
I don’t have a problem with it, I don’t know, of a threshold, an event like that would make me want to switch. From one software to another just making sure to have a backup plan though in case something does go wrong or Something else is needed. is always good to have a plan for
10:23:41 am – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah, that that is a very good point. Having no matter what software you’re using, sometimes things will break. Sometimes things will go wrong. I was at an event recently where melee stop being able to Push the pairings online and so we had to switch to paper pairings and switch to paper slips because players couldn’t report results either. And so being ready to be flexible is important. You have something to add aruna.
10:24:12 am – Aruna Prem:
Yeah, I have a question for John.
10:24:14 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:24:14 am – Aruna Prem:
you like and do a backup event link
10:24:14 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:24:17 am – Aruna Prem:
and export it to other soft tours like in case everything brooks down or something like that? Or
10:24:23 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
As far as I’m aware, no, I don’t believe that.
10:24:26 am – Aruna Prem:
10:24:26 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
That is an option that is available.
10:24:31 am – Jonah Kellman:
Is have, This is a question that I’m curious about at it’s a little bit less relevant. Have, are you able to look at the files themselves? I remember hearing stories of brilliant scorekeepers in days. Gone by, who could open up the event file in a text editor and be like, Okay here’s our problem. And they could go in and change results manually, even when the score, keeping software content and I feel like That’s not a thing you can do with event link, for very good reason, because it’s very easy to screw things up tremendously. If you just start deleting portions of that history,
10:25:08 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
Well, that is something I have seen done in the past. It is not something I have seen with event link.
10:25:15 am – Jonah Kellman:
That makes a lot of sense.
10:25:15 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:25:16 am – Aruna Prem:
10:25:16 am – Jonah Kellman:
I think that’s what was
10:25:18 am – Aruna Prem:
There is a technical reason for that.
10:25:20 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
Mmm. Yes, there is a very good reason for that.
10:25:22 am – Aruna Prem:
Because this is on the browser, it’s not an application that you have locally. So you don’t have the file locally.
10:25:29 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:25:29 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:25:31 am – Jonah Kellman:
I think are you able to create file backups like can you download a backup of an event link round in case something does go wrong?
10:25:40 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
I do not believe. So, I do not think that, that is a capability that event link has.
10:25:46 am – Jonah Kellman:
That makes sense being as it is holy browser. Based on, to answer your question, blink of leak from the chat. There is not a standalone version of event. Like it is completely browser based which on one hand is very convenient
10:25:57 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:25:59 am – Jonah Kellman:
because it means that you can just grab your phone and start scorekeeping or your laptop in case a some place isn’t prepared or if the device that normally is supposed to be running your score. Keeping software is not functioning because technology is far from perfect. You can always just be like, okay, We have a laptop we’re gonna be running it off of this. It’ll be a little weird because we’re used to having this other setup but you can run it from anywhere that functions as a computer. Now, I’m trying to figure out like, Could you run event link from your like Switch. If you were able to get a console on there, anyways.
10:26:39 am – Aruna Prem:
Will you want it?
10:26:41 am – Jonah Kellman:
I mean, I wouldn’t want to but maybe it’s the best off. Anyways, we’re getting a little off track. um,
10:26:48 am – Aruna Prem:
on the side of this, a good thing is
10:26:48 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:26:50 am – Aruna Prem:
that being on the browser is means that you always have a backup done all the time. You don’t have to, to make backup
10:26:56 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:26:57 am – Aruna Prem:
10:26:58 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:26:58 am – Jonah Kellman:
That makes a lot.
10:26:59 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
That it, that is very true.
10:27:03 am – Jonah Kellman:
Activian please don’t run a pre-release on your fridge. I You know what, I can’t tell you what to do, or what not to do with your pre-release, but that is not something that Judge Academy recommends. Judge Academy does not recommend running Pre-releases off of fridges official policy. Anyways, aruna, This is more of a question for you. What are some unexpected effects of not having paper? Pairings? A lot of players do, expect them and some judges like will stand at the printer and be like, wait. Do we not have? Five sets of pairings, just one sheet of paper. How has that impacted tournaments for you?
10:27:44 am – Aruna Prem:
I think the bearing part is we are already used to it and as far as you as you stick the tournament code somewhere and you announce the players that they have to enter companion there and the other side of physical thing that we are missing in the is the sleep. And these, I think has got more effects on the tournament.
10:28:06 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:28:07 am – Aruna Prem:
And on the judges and on players.
10:28:09 am – Jonah Kellman:
that, it’s very true, and we’ll be
10:28:10 am – Aruna Prem:
10:28:11 am – Jonah Kellman:
getting to the round itself with the next set of questions.
10:28:16 am – Aruna Prem:
But I think that for the paper for the pings, it’s we already used to it.
10:28:21 am – Jonah Kellman:
That makes a lot of sense. So during the round, something that we judges are very used to having as match slips where we can write down the results time extensions and penalties and no shows. So Aruna talk about what it’s like to not have match slips for everything available does that cause problems? Does that make life a little bit harder for judges sometimes?
10:28:47 am – Aruna Prem:
Yes, and no. And no. At the same time, I mean, I like Yes, and no. At the same time, I mean, I like to have control over the event and I think we mostly like and you lose a
10:28:53 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:28:57 am – Aruna Prem:
little bit of it without the sleep. on the other hand, you save a lot of time not printing it, not cutting it, not distributing it and and you see the the effect of it in the tournament, But as I said, you will lose control in many different spots. For instance, the extra time you said before we were going through tables and and see the extra times. And we can know when it was assigned, you can still do that if you have like a post it, Especially if it does, got some wonderful color that you can see from from far away, you can see the extra time and The other thing is that before it was evident, if you had the result of a table or not, like you were walking through the tables and you see asleep. So this this result was not yet the scorekeeper Now, you don’t know, you see an empty table and you don’t know if they finished and enter the result and went away or finish and went away. Like I was thinking that my opponent was entering the result and the opponent as well. And then the penalties as well before we were writing penalties on the entry slips. And now what what I usually do is have a sheet at the gel station and like a table and you have the table number around the player, all the information that you need and the judges go there and write it same for the extra time so that even if like you have a post it but it flies away or you forgot to remove it from the previous round or you still have the master information. Let’s say somewhere. And yeah, my advice is to be proactive about all the information that you are losing, all the control that you are using, try to have it. Some, some, in some other way, like extra time, post it penalties, use a sheet and like, if you see A table with no players, you don’t have the result called the players, just try to save some time.
10:31:14 am – Jonah Kellman:
John, do you have anything to add to that?
10:31:18 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
so one of the things with no shows that is very tricky in the new world
10:31:22 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:31:26 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
of event link, is that once a result is in, The scorekeeper So you say I am your scorekeeper I won’t know if that is a no show or not, just from event link itself. it like you can make an assumption that if a result is coming in, you know, right at the 10 minute, mark that there’s likelihood, but a judge will need to come up and tell the scorekeeper Who your no shows are for the round or have some kind of method to get that information to the scorekeepers, so that drops can be assessed. Another thing with time extensions. That is. Something that I wish you could put directly into event link. Say Click on a table and add a time extension, just like you can for penalties. But unfortunately, that is not something that is possible at this time. And so like your Post-it notes. Idea for writing down on the table plus say, plus two minutes. Is a great solution to that or like you said, having a sheet of paper up at station, say near the scorekeeper to tell everybody. Hey, these are the time extensions or penalties and things like that is very useful.
10:32:55 am – Jonah Kellman:
I’m just real, like I would really love to be able to put time extensions into event link because the companion app. If I’m remembering correctly has a timer that players can see and so my thought, if you were able to say table, 47, plus three minutes, their personal clock, In the age of technology would be able to adjust so that they can see. Oh yes, we do have three minutes left. And that would be. A very nice feature to have.
10:33:23 am – Aruna Prem:
The amount of of code that you save
10:33:23 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:33:25 am – Aruna Prem:
and players asking, are much time is left in the round is amazing.
10:33:29 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:33:30 am – Aruna Prem:
In the round is amazing. It’s wonderful.
10:33:31 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:33:31 am – Aruna Prem:
answer this. Kind of silly question is great.
10:33:36 am – Jonah Kellman:
Yeah now with no shows so if one player’s not showed up, it’s important to find the scorekeeper and let them know Table. 47. Had a missing player and you’re able to determine the player who has won is not the no-showed player and you can just drop the other player. And then for other tables, we can be like Table 46. Nobody showed up, You know, like Okay. I know both of these are no shows. So just knowing which tables at the No shows. once the results are in our generally enough for you because you can safely assume that the player who won is the player who is there.
10:34:11 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
Hmm. Yes, but I also don’t like to make assumptions especially in event link and going into the next round. without having any sort of verification from some sort of announcement of, Hey, are Player A and Player B in in the room. If you are, please post your match results. If not come up to the scorekeeper and
10:34:37 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:34:39 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
we can get it in if we don’t, if I don’t see a results, then another decision will have to be made with that judge.
10:34:47 am – Jonah Kellman:
Right, that makes a lot of sense.
10:34:51 am – Aruna Prem:
what we are doing in this big events, we announced that we use the usual procedure, like And you wait 10 minutes and then you call a judge and then we have in the pocket of every judge, a little sheet of paper with the table number round number and the line to write the name of the player, which is there. So this is the information discovered this scorekeeper needs to to drop the other one.
10:35:16 am – Jonah Kellman:
That’s a very.
10:35:17 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
That is a great.
10:35:18 am – Jonah Kellman:
Piece of technology saying the same
10:35:18 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
Oops. Sorry Jonah.
10:35:21 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:35:22 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
Absolutely. Yeah, that’s great example.
10:35:26 am – Jonah Kellman:
I’ve also seen some digital time extension tracking using apps like discord or other chats where judges just enter all the time extensions and then during endophren, which will be talking about in a minute or two, the judges can scroll through there and see what tables have what time extensions that can sometimes be a little bit difficult to. track because you have to be scrolling up through your phone, but it means that everybody who has access to that chat has access to this Pool of time extension data, whereas a sheet. While it’s a nice hard copy and it’s very easy to see all of the information. At once. It’s harder to duplicate that information, I personally like having the little slips with the time extensions but that’s because it reminds me of match slips. And I don’t like new things because they scare me.
10:36:21 am – Aruna Prem:
I prefer paper in this case, but in with respect to what you say, I will suggest part for Fox. I don’t know if you know it.
10:36:29 am – Jonah Kellman:
Yes, purple foxes. An incredible tool.
10:36:31 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:36:33 am – Jonah Kellman:
I think there have been some updates and adjustments made in the past few years and so not everybody is using it these days but definitely has A lot of value. I personally like looking at time extensions and running and different from a sheet of paper and a clipboard. But without time extensions on match, slips, that can sometimes be a little bit harder to get the data because it’s already on your phone or already on iPad or some other tablet that makes. Corralling all of that. Data a little bit easier. We’re already talking about this with time extensions and end of round. How do the logistics of end-of-round, play out differently. We’ve talked a little bit about trying to find players and making sure players get their results in. So how does end of round change with Eventlink as compared to traditional methods of parents and match result collection? Hot Aruna. Let’s start with you again from the floor perspective.
10:37:33 am – Aruna Prem:
Okay, so you still have the information of the open tables from the scorekeeper if you need it and you need it. And and then as I said, you have a
10:37:41 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:37:45 am – Aruna Prem:
kind of kind of lost of control of the of the end of round you. In my experience you have to You may have different issues like players are not correctly. Entering the result, you have to type twice and sometimes they tap once and not the second time and sometimes we we especially at the beginning, advises the judges to be there and wait for the player to correctly, enter the result to be sure that it was entered and missed. Some time. As I said you have no players at the table and you don’t know if they finished and enter the result. But the result is not there yet because you have some delay between the moment in which the player taps and moment in which the score keeper, get the result. Maybe these as well, depends on the size of the tournament I guess. And on other events. Concurring at the same time and stuff like that.
10:38:40 am – Jonah Kellman:
I think every event has what we call or I call ghosts where the Layers are not there. The results are not there and you’re just like, there should be something here and I can’t find it. Like, even an eight player event. I’m like, I have three of the match results, but nobody is playing what happened at table one.
10:39:00 am – Aruna Prem:
10:39:02 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:39:03 am – Aruna Prem:
But the key difference to me is that before we enter sleep, you knew it because you had the entry there,
10:39:07 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:39:08 am – Aruna Prem:
empty and no one there. So you directly spot it. Now you spot it when it doesn’t affect like it’s the last table and you know where the they are empty and no one there. So you directly spot it. Now you spot it when it doesn’t affect like it’s the last table and you know where they are and you have the result So my advice is like to try to find these cases in advance, like search it, see if there is no one playing there and you have the result call them in advance and don’t wait for the very last moment.
10:39:33 am – Jonah Kellman:
Yes. like, hey, were any of you playing hey, were any of you playing Yes. Being very proactive and being like, hey, were any of you playing here? Did you submit your result even before paging them? If you have a larger event you can just go to the table and be like were you at this table? Did you submit your results? Can you please do that? We would like to start the next round so you can play more magic.
10:39:52 am – Aruna Prem:
And then I said before, I think that
10:39:53 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:39:54 am – Aruna Prem:
we use in the in the end of round is the time extension. And we don’t have this the paper information, or we have to find a way to have it like the, the table at the gestation or the post it, or And whatever. So, it’s something that we have to proactively again, try to to manage. This is to me, the main difference, in the main effects on the end of round.
10:40:23 am – Jonah Kellman:
John what’s differences? Have you seen?
10:40:26 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
so, one of the biggest things that you both have pointed on is being proactive about end of round knowing who, has not submitted their results is something that is Easy to see but going out and finding them on the floor. It has proven to be a unique challenge. So if they are at the table, making sure to stay at the table until you see that they have confirmed or entered and confirmed, their result is huge. If they aren’t at the table, having a solution to announce for them to submit their results. is very important and then just making sure to talk with your scorekeeper to see you, when those results are to see if those results have come in, if they haven’t yet, who were still waiting on and what solutions might come from, Not having those results in just yet.
10:41:27 am – Jonah Kellman:
That makes a lot of sense. Is there? Any. So I believe this is the case can players enter draws in event link.
10:41:40 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
they should be able to, I don’t have a lot of experience with the companion app directly. But I do believe.
10:41:47 am – Aruna Prem:
I had it like, Last week it happened. It was an intentional draw. They entered one one. So they, they cannot set the number
10:41:55 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:41:58 am – Aruna Prem:
draws, they can set the number of wins for each player. so, what they usually do is they enter one one, to me, the big problem is that Maybe is not that relevant. But as a scorekeeper, you cannot differentiate the real one. One to the intentional draw, before you add it and in the
10:42:16 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:42:19 am – Aruna Prem:
So you can correct it? No, you can set 0, 0 3 as the error. Says. But you’ll know when you want to correct it and then if you start, correcting it, you have to correct all the time. And what’s your policy on that? John your with the score. Keep your experience.
10:42:37 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
ah, be being consistent is one of the biggest things with that. So I know that in Event link you can edit the number of draws there, is that option available in the player card? By being consistent saying like intentional draw as zero zero or draws based on the amount of games played. So if you only played one game and you know, you want the full 50 minutes plus turns, Entering that as zero zero is correct as well or just one and one works works as well. Looks like somebody in Chad had just said entering as zero. Zero is The. Accepted way. To enter an intentional draw.
10:43:32 am – Jonah Kellman:
Okay and so that’ll show up at zero zero zero and you can derive from there. Where is an unintentional draw will show up as 1 1 and you can either you don’t know if they’ve played two or three games, which might have a minor impact on tiebreakers down the line. But I wouldn’t want to assume that
10:43:50 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:43:51 am – Jonah Kellman:
they have played three games when I don’t have that information.
10:43:56 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
Yeah. And even having like, for example, I had an event where I was judging and I had the players that if they were intentionally drawing, come up and tell me. So I could enter in, enter it in as 0, 0 3.
10:44:13 am – Jonah Kellman:
That makes a lot of sense as someone is saying that an error an event like might show up as zero zero and so you as a scorekeeper, don’t know if it is a misreported result or if it’s unintentional draw. So,
10:44:25 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:44:26 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:44:26 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:44:27 am – Jonah Kellman:
like to intentionally draw, draw, communicate with the scorekeeper and they will be able to If you would like to intentionally draw, communicate with the scorekeeper and they will be able to correctly and put your result.
10:44:36 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:44:36 am – Aruna Prem:
Still, it’s impacting. Like not the first. I mean, it’s not really impactful in the, in the in the result of the tournament is not.
10:44:46 am – Jonah Kellman:
It generally should not be no.
10:44:49 am – Aruna Prem:
I’ve never seen a case where it was.
10:44:49 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
It, it shouldn’t be. neither have I,
10:44:52 am – Jonah Kellman:
Yes. so, We’re beginning to wrap up. What are some common challenges that you’ve seen in event? Lincoln Companion, and what are some ways to dress those challenges? If we haven’t already discussed them? John why don’t we start with you is? We’ve been studying with the Runa a lot?
10:45:11 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
That’s one of the biggest challenges that I have seen is adding players late to events. You cannot add them in to an event with anything other than a loss which can lead to a a bad player experience and a harder experience for a judge or square keeper than than it needs to be.
10:45:38 am – Jonah Kellman:
Especially for sealed events. Correct.
10:45:41 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
So sealed. So with sealed events, this is not
10:45:43 am – Jonah Kellman:
feel good, you
10:45:44 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
actually a problem because you can add people in during build time
10:45:47 am – Jonah Kellman:
During build with no one.
10:45:49 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
without any issue.
10:45:51 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:45:51 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
However, if you go into round one, and somebody would like to be added to the event that can only be with a
10:45:57 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:45:59 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
with a match loss.
10:46:01 am – Aruna Prem:
You have the option to remade, the all round, they all pairing and everyone stands up and sit again. But you have to evaluate like how long it has passed, which is the experience for the other prayers and but you have the option.
10:46:16 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
Are you that? That is true. There is that option as well. That that does exist. One of the other biggest challenges is accidentally entering in a result. So say around starts and somebody accidentally clicks a results and they call for just a. Hey I did not mean to enter this result. This is not correct. The only way to fix that. Is to play your game or to play your match and then go up to the scorekeeper and tell them. This was the actual result of the match because you cannot remove a match result. Once it has been entered,
10:46:54 am – Jonah Kellman:
so, once a player submits a match result even they cannot change it without the scorekeeper assistance,
10:47:01 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
Correct. They cannot change it. Only the scorekeeper can
10:47:05 am – Jonah Kellman:
That’s good to know. Aruna.
10:47:08 am – Aruna Prem:
10:47:08 am – Jonah Kellman:
Do you have any challenges that you can countered in either Eventlink or companion that we haven’t already discussed?
10:47:15 am – Aruna Prem:
No. I mean, it’s what we discussed already in, I think, again, you can be proactive to try to avoid them. Like, if you’re not, we are starting pairings in two minutes, please. Make sure you are in the event in the companion, so that everyone checks and And then if even in the case, you arrive late well, you feel less bad and you gave the opportunity and you gave time and you know, it’s now it was up to you and you, you did not check and or you And the same for for a wrong result, like I asked before starting the new round piece, make sure that you have the current amount of points. So that again on one side, if there was some issue, you are able to correct it and on the other side, if it’s not, it’s later you already gave the opportunity and it’s less feel
10:48:10 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:48:12 am – Aruna Prem:
10:48:13 am – Jonah Kellman:
That makes a lot of sense.
10:48:14 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:48:15 am – Jonah Kellman:
Making sure players are aware of what they should be doing because they are also learning the system and so we could shouldn’t just expect them to already know what they should be doing perfectly. so,
10:48:26 am – Aruna Prem:
and and the other thing is, Issues can come, but you can be flexible with having linked me. I mean, you can print bearings. You can print results lips and have the old like a result entering it with the scorekeeper as well. So if if you see, that’s something is is not working because of the setting because of the players.
10:48:58 am – Jonah Kellman:
That makes a lot of sense now, we’re starting to wrap up. So if anybody from the chat has any questions, this is the time to ask them before we do wrap up though. John as someone who’s more on the scorekeeper side of things, is there anything you’d like to ask of Aruna, any From that floor judge perspective and leading the logistics from the other side of the room and Aruna in a second, I’ll be asking you the opposite question. So if you have something get it prepared.
10:49:25 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
So, with us talking a lot about logistics being a problem from from the floor, or having a lot of more difficulties than we did in the before times. What is something that Scorekeepers can do to really help out floor judges? Make their lives a lot easier.
10:49:49 am – Aruna Prem:
Hmm, it’s interesting what? I usually the help a lot in making the option known, because Hmm. It’s interesting what? I usually the help a lot in making the option known, because maybe Hmm, it’s interesting. It’s interesting what? I usually the help a lot in making the option known, because maybe Hmm, it’s interesting. What? I usually the help a lot in making the option known because maybe we don’t know the software yet and maybe you Hmm. What? I usually the help a lot in making the option known because maybe we don’t know the software yet and maybe you Hmm. It’s interesting. I usually the help a lot in making the option known because maybe we don’t know the software yet and maybe you Hmm. That’s interesting. What? I usually the help a lot in making the option known because maybe we don’t know the software yet and maybe you do know it better. So maybe I’m not aware of some option maybe as a new high judge. I don’t know that I can print slips or I can print bearings or I can ask you the open tables or whatever. Maybe, there’s something more that I don’t know yet and you can explain it. So, Keeping into account that the knowledge of the software is still low. I don’t know if there is any official guide, for, for scorekeeping with event, link, solving problems with and link, we have one in Spanish and we are working on one in Italian. I can share it somewhere. then media but they help here is giving into account that knowledge is low and that if we can up with something that I cannot know, share it.
10:50:55 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:50:57 am – Jonah Kellman:
I like, For a lot. And yeah, if it’d be great to see those guides and be able to share them with other folks. Now, we’re gonna do you have a question for John?
10:51:08 am – Aruna Prem:
Yeah we touch it. Some points that we think maybe improvement points apparently like adding the option to what the the extra time or something like that. What it’s the big and the big pain point to you? What do you think can be improved? Inherent link or Defender.
10:51:25 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
One of the things that I find most frustrating, when I am in around is like, I had said, a little bit ago. Is when a result gets accidentally entered, I don’t have the ability to remove that result. That is something that. Leads to a bad player experience because then they themselves on the floor, cannot change that results after they play the game. Instead, they actually have to come up to the scorekeeper and tell them what the results. Actually is so we can get it edited before the start of the next round. so I, if anything, I would love to see the ability to remove a result if it was accidentally entered in other than just being able to change it while within the round.
10:52:24 am – Aruna Prem:
So you mean from this scorekeeper side, removing a result.
10:52:28 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:52:29 am – Aruna Prem:
so that the player can enter it again
10:52:30 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
Yeah, being it.
10:52:31 am – Aruna Prem:
10:52:32 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
Yes, to give that control back to back to the player. So that way I know that they are entering. the correct result and say, instead of Them accidentally telling me the wrong name. So say like both players are named Jonah for example and they come up saying Jonah wins too. Oh if I don’t realize that both players are named Jonah I might just press 204 one person or another and not double check that And that could lead to. More logistical issues than it helps fix.
10:53:11 am – Aruna Prem:
Do you think this may be helped? I think that there is an option like for competitive tournaments, that the opponent should confirm. The result, Do you think this lowers the currency of having brown results?
10:53:25 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
it does lower it but it doesn’t make it non-existent so with it still it existing to even as a small degree being able to fix that on the fly is useful. But like I said, you, you are able to edit match results while you’re in the round itself. It’s just, you cannot remove one entirely, so you can’t make it blank again.
10:53:57 am – Aruna Prem:
Now, is there anywhere we can submit suggestions to for event link improvement?
10:54:02 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
You keep you can actually, in in
10:54:04 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:54:04 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
Event link in the bottom left hand corner. There is a Submit Feedback button that you can fill out if you are in a tournament and Submit any feedback you may have. For eventlink improvements.
10:54:24 am – Aruna Prem:
I think for judges will also be cool to have like a spectator view of the tournament. Like you enter the tournament but not as a player so that you can see pairings or like Information that you may need well
10:54:34 am – Jonah Kellman:
That would be very nice so you don’t.
10:54:35 am – Aruna Prem:
10:54:36 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
That would be interesting.
10:54:36 am – Jonah Kellman:
So you don’t have to bother the score, even be like hey, which tables are out again. Okay, it’s been two minutes which tables are still out.
10:54:43 am – Aruna Prem:
10:54:45 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
Yeah, that would be very interesting as well. I like that idea.
10:54:50 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:54:50 am – Aruna Prem:
another issue that we had that it was
10:54:51 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:54:53 am – Aruna Prem:
that sometime we was a big screen or a projector to you have a screen in heavenly that says that tells you the results like is Scrolling around, you see, all the tables and the results. And this is kind of a spectator view and it’s fine. But but if you are at the top table and you want to know the result of the other table to take decision on your, on your table, it’s a big information that you have on the wall that you didn’t have before, and you can rely on So maybe this is Spectator view also helps in this because you can eventually remove this screen and just use the spectator.
10:55:32 am – Jonah Kellman:
That makes sense. Fantastic to either of you have any last closing, thoughts? You would like to add
10:55:41 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
Being flexible is one of the most important things that I find from both, the scorekeeping perspective, and judge perspective, because things do happen. So, having a plan and then being able to adjust your plan. When Things can inevitably happen. And then even trying to familiarize yourself with event link before you go to an event. So that way, in case you do need to do, any sort of scorekeeping is important as well. I know wizards does have very good guides on how to use event link both within a tournament itself and in the actual Browser itself. So if there are tools that you can use to help familiarize yourself with it,
10:56:40 am – Aruna Prem:
Yeah, and you have different ways to use Avent link as I said before you can print if you want to paintings the sleep or just try to adapt to the environment to what you see.
10:56:54 am – Jonah Kellman:
10:56:55 am – John Vorderbrueggen:
10:56:57 am – Jonah Kellman:
I’m gonna you just sent me the link to your Guide to Event link in Spanish. So I’m gonna share that with Twitch Channel. We’ll see if we can get that more, broadly, shared rather than just in this broadcast. But with that, I want to thank both of you so much for joining me today. It was a pleasure talking with both of you. I actually learned some things that I didn’t know about the process. How it works? How the app functions, and some ways to, I think that will improve my events moving forward. So thank you once again. And for those of you watching, I invite you to join us tomorrow at 3pm Pacific. When Daniel Lee is talking with Toby Elliot about current events in policy. Thank you so much and we’ll see you later.
10:57:39 am – Aruna Prem:
10:57:40 am – John Vorderbrueggen: