Judge Academy > Transcript – September First Week: Policy Current Events

Transcript – September First Week: Policy Current Events

3:00:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
Good afternoon, everyone and welcome. Back to First Week series for September today. We have a very special guest with us. We have Toby Elliott, a once Level, 5 judge and the current author of the in the IPG and a very important figure in magic judging history to the point where he’s the one that certified me for level one, a solid 18 years ago, so direct all your complaints as appropriate, Toby, go ahead and give us a little bit about yourself like, what your experience level is and what you’ve been up to?

3:01:04 pm – Toby Elliott:
Hi Antonio. I certified Daniel here. No, yes. So I’m Toby. I started playing magic back in 1992. Alright, 1993 and 92, impressive and never stopped back in 1999. I qualified for the pro tour. And at that time you couldn’t do anything. You couldn’t plan more events. If you qualified for the program you had to like about the rest. It’s like that’s no fun. I want to hang out, my friends and hey, maybe just check out this judging thing. That worked out. Okay. I started judging in in late, 90 in late 1999. And when I moved to California in two thousands, I was a level two and became a level three there and slowly started working more and more on the pro tour. And just started working my way, up the ranks. And most I just threw out, terrible ideas, non-stop and other people would tell me, You know, that idea is terrible and every once a month, like, okay, that is pretty good and that led to when they decided they wanted to do a rewrite of the the documents which are the time we’re sort of based around the concept of procedural errors.

3:02:12 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:02:13 pm – Toby Elliott:
Um, they turned to me to coordinated. I wasn’t writing it. There were like 20 people involved. They needed somebody.

3:02:18 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:02:19 pm – Toby Elliott:
together. Go section by section, talk about, we wanted to do and Bring it all together. Go section by section, talk about, we wanted to do. And that was the sort of germ of the new ipg and the new way of approaching the tournament docs. And so, I just been maintaining those since, then I do both the IPG and the MTR for most of the That aren’t just what’s legal in Standard right now. And I work on that with Scott Larabee and we produce those documents and you’ve probably noticed that we haven’t been producing those documents as much in the last three years. Because Things have happened, um, and I’m sure we’ll touch on that. A bunch today about what the policy

3:02:52 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:02:52 pm – Toby Elliott:
we’re going etc.

3:02:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, it’s it’s interesting. You mentioned as one of the things that I’m sure you and I could talk for hours and hours on is things that used to be in the has. If I’m, if I remember incorrectly the because the IPG is a relatively, new rep is a was a that was a new acronym, right on that rewrite.

3:03:14 pm – Toby Elliott:

3:03:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
I don’t, I’m trying to remember, I don’t remember what it was before that.

3:03:19 pm – Toby Elliott:
Oh my goodness, I got them for.

3:03:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
Was it just a penalty guidelines?

3:03:21 pm – Toby Elliott:
Yeah, it was just the penalty guidelines. Yeah.

3:03:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
Penalty Guidelines. Okay, there we go. So but yeah. Procedural errors a deck, warband errors. Like there’s a whole lot of

3:03:29 pm – Toby Elliott:
Oh, that’s that those were only ipg

3:03:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, sure. But like just anachronistic things

3:03:33 pm – Toby Elliott:
Those were on the IPG that.

3:03:34 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:03:35 pm – Toby Elliott:
We had procedural error major and procedural and minor and procedural are a major.

3:03:39 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:03:40 pm – Toby Elliott:
The judge came to the table. Listen to the players. And then decided what level of infraction. It was

3:03:46 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, wow.

3:03:46 pm – Toby Elliott:
Just, you know, a big It was a major.

3:03:46 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:03:48 pm – Toby Elliott:
it was a game loss and if it was a minor it was you know, go do stuff. That was largely not terribly

3:03:54 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:03:55 pm – Toby Elliott:
consistent and basically it left the judge with all the power

3:03:59 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:03:59 pm – Toby Elliott:
Um, they they could essentially make up anything and ironically we sort of got back to that with casual.

3:04:05 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, a little bit.

3:04:06 pm – Toby Elliott:
Um, let’s um, but for the back then, the most important unit of sort of magic play was the, the circuit, the, the idea of the ptqs, and the PT,

3:04:16 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:04:17 pm – Toby Elliott:
everything else. And for those, it was super important for there to be consistency, like,

3:04:21 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:04:22 pm – Toby Elliott:
like a lot of travel for competitive magic, play for those people with really important. That if, you know, if I’m in Pittsburgh today and I’m in Boston tomorrow, I get the same rulings and

3:04:32 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:04:32 pm – Toby Elliott:
it’s really it’s really one of that level of consistency. So that drove a lot of the sort of level of consistency. So that drove a lot of the sort of So that drove a lot of the sort of level of consistency. consistency. So that drove a lot of the sort of migration away from this procedural error concept to a more structured way to handle things, you know, where we actually talked about well, trigger, how we handled triggers should probably be different from how we handle game rule violations, etc. And of course, that’s evolved many

3:04:48 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:04:50 pm – Toby Elliott:
many times over the years, because it turns out the lots of people have really good ideas and they come and they propose things and we say that sounds like an awesome idea and it gets written up and We suddenly have a new infraction or we have a new way to handle things.

3:05:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
The and it’s really interesting to hear like so. So knowing that that you know, over the last 20 years, the the major shift in the IPG has really been towards this. It’s a little bit more prescriptive and a little less judgment based. And so it’s really interesting to hear new judges that are learning that are just learning this and you know, it’s a it’s a different kind of a difficulty now. Because back then it was a How do you figure out where the line between minor and major is? Whereas now it’s more of a Okay, is that a game or violation with a failure to maintain? Is it a double game rule violation? So it’s a different sort of difficulty, which is really interesting.

3:05:41 pm – Toby Elliott:
Yeah, I mean we’ve tried to put the difficulties in places where they don’t matter all that much. This is actually classic example is the double grv or failure to maintain game state and everything. If a judge messes that up You know, it it’s not great but it’s not the end of the world. Where is, if you in the oldest view,

3:06:00 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:06:02 pm – Toby Elliott:
messed up procedural, miner versus procedural major, you’re probably giving out game losses. You didn’t want to give out or having an impact on the game that Oh, boy, that should not have happened. So yes sir, there’s complexity in the corners, but in general we try to do it such in the broad strokes. If you get to the right infraction and that’s should be as easy as possible, you’re probably in pretty good shape. And then obviously there are corners and there are interesting cases, but on the whole as long as you get to the right place, you’re you’re on pretty solid ground.

3:06:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right, for sure. And and that’s definitely true. And we can also see that in in. So, coming back to what you said about. Like even if you get it a little bit wrong, it’s really not kind of the end of the world. I I related note to that as the big movement away from game losses as much as possible, right because there used to be a ton more game losses in. Yeah and there’s and now it’s what

3:06:51 pm – Toby Elliott:
Oh yes.

3:06:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
it’s just there’s some deck problem upgrades, there’s deckless problem and then and having to search because they just I didn’t make a list or anything

3:07:03 pm – Toby Elliott:
The bug, there’s a bunch of sort of

3:07:03 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:07:05 pm – Toby Elliott:
external to the game places in game.

3:07:06 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, right. Exactly. And then

3:07:09 pm – Toby Elliott:
It’s, there’s very little at this

3:07:09 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:07:10 pm – Toby Elliott:

3:07:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
Mm-hmm. And then with and then obviously like upgraded gameplay errors and things like that. Right? But yeah the the experience of game losses is so much less and I it’s interesting because the players

3:07:19 pm – Toby Elliott:

3:07:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
really noticed that and you can always kind of tell a player that’s been around for a while because you’ll be like talking to them about some serious issue like Oh they they cast divination through three cards and so you’ll be like, Okay, so you’ll start to explain, it’s like this is a hidden cardio and they’re like, Yeah, so I get a game loss, right? You’re like, no, no, you’re probably get to see your hand. Pick a card that card. Get shuffled away, but then you get to keep playing from there. Like so you can you get it’s really interesting to see those whoever they’re like Oh I mean that’s still sucks but it’s nice that I get to keep playing the game.

3:07:53 pm – Toby Elliott:
Nope. Yeah. And that was that’s where that all

3:07:53 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:07:54 pm – Toby Elliott:
stemmed from is stemmed from is once we had framework in place. It started to become a question of Well you know we have these game losses all over the place but you know we don’t want to end games like no judges ever. Wanted to hand out to get well mostly doesn’t want to hand out game losses and

3:08:09 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:08:10 pm – Toby Elliott:
Sometimes things are just so broken. You’re like Oh God. But in general, you don’t want to

3:08:13 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:08:15 pm – Toby Elliott:
hand out a game loss and most of the time, the question is well, can we mitigate the hand out a game loss and most of the time, The question is, Well, can we mitigate the advantage? So for example, hidden card air is a classic case. Hidden Carter came from a British judge, a Matthew Johnson. Who came up who pointed out to his? Hey, you know? When you there are ways, we could mitigate all the advantage around this and, you know, at the end of very rough draft of this, and it’s been iterated on over the years quite extensively. But the fundamental truth is, you can make it so that as long as you can make the rule, not abusable Then you can actually have the flexibility to get to a place where you don’t necessarily have to end the game.

3:08:51 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:08:51 pm – Toby Elliott:
You can produce mitigatable advantages or you can assess and this is a case. And for example, the deck problem ones nothing’s actually happened because of this error.

3:09:01 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:09:02 pm – Toby Elliott:
It’s all still in the deck or whatever and you’ll see the way that infraction is constructed. It’s very much About the moment, it became abusable, it became a game loss.

3:09:11 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:09:12 pm – Toby Elliott:
and so we want to make sure that, you know, we want to make sure that those situations you can’t like Draw your third copy of a card. You only have two of in your deck and cast it and get away with it that

3:09:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
Exactly. Yeah, I was yeah, I was gonna mention

3:09:24 pm – Toby Elliott:
Horrible. And

3:09:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
that specifically as the yeah.

3:09:27 pm – Toby Elliott:
so this, you know, that’s sort of thing. Or when you have the wrong number of cards that’s got to be upgraded because well, now you’ve increased the potential for drawing those cards and things like that. But if you forgot to sideboard and never drew a card, never do that card during the game. That probably didn’t actually affect the game.

3:09:43 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:09:43 pm – Toby Elliott:
Um, so why do we need to like bounce you from this thing?

3:09:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Exactly.

3:09:47 pm – Toby Elliott:
And so that’s been a philosophical shift, is game. Losses are important as a as a measure of as a discouragement mechanism and there’s a party but

3:09:55 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:09:57 pm – Toby Elliott:
they should only be used when there’s really no other option available to us. And if we can find ways, even if they’re harsh and hidden card errors frequently, very harsh,

3:10:06 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:10:06 pm – Toby Elliott:
but a harsh solution that lets you keep playing. The game is better than game loss.

3:10:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, that’s true. That’s it’s and there’s there. I remember folks, right around, this is right around 2015, if my memory serves correctly, when I had in Carter was like introduced Something, it was something

3:10:22 pm – Toby Elliott:
Huh, maybe or you’ll find out if I needed to

3:10:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
that. Yeah, it was right. Yeah sure. But like I remember folks mentioning around the time where that folks that were not fans of the new policy? They were talking about how. Okay, yeah, it’s better than game loss but like in X number of years, folks aren’t gonna remember that. It used to be a game loss and they’re just gonna be stuck with this thing. That still feels really bad and is a game that you get to play. But you feel bad about any different from a game that you’ve instantly lost and I think I think you’re right that the answer still is. Yes, it’s better. Yeah, relatively speaking but like at

3:10:52 pm – Toby Elliott:

3:10:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
some point you also get to say the player made a mistake and we need to correct that and sometimes the corrections are not going to be all that much fun, but we’re still trying to get back to our mantra of matches of magic should be decided by games of magic, right whenever possible. So minimizing the number of game losses in policy. Absolutely. Gets us closer to that.

3:11:18 pm – Toby Elliott:
The penalty still have to have teeth. They have to mitigate advantage because we can’t get into a world where it’s beneficial to make a mistake.

3:11:26 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:11:27 pm – Toby Elliott:
Um, or at least it’s not, it’s been

3:11:27 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:11:29 pm – Toby Elliott:
it’s, it’s, it can’t be beneficial to like, look for opportunities to make a mistake. Obviously, sometimes you make a mistake and it turns out to be beneficial. And that’s, that’s inevitable. I I cast wrath of God off the wrong colors of monon. We don’t discover till three turns later. Yeah, I made a mistake and it benefited me probably, but that’s not this, you know, that, that that’s not the same as seeking out these opportunities set up a game state

3:11:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Exactly.

3:11:55 pm – Toby Elliott:
Set up a game state situation to abuse, this abuse a sort of a hole in the penalties. That gives me an advantage here.

3:12:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
Mm-hmm. I wanted to switch over to something You mentioned earlier when it came to like finding new ways to handle certain problems and talk a little bit about mist triggers so you. So, do you remember how it came about We came to this idea of just like, Oh We came to this idea of just like, Oh for your opponents triggers because for your opponents triggers because

3:12:18 pm – Toby Elliott:
Oh boy.

3:12:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
that was the right?

3:12:20 pm – Toby Elliott:
Oh boy. That that was a lengthy winding road with a with several interesting starts that had good nuggets of ideas that were not necessarily quite there yet.

3:12:30 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:12:31 pm – Toby Elliott:
Um, it was well that was why around 2010, I think um,

3:12:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
That sounds about right? Yeah.

3:12:36 pm – Toby Elliott:
About right? And yeah, it just came from the fundamental point that we that magics are really hard game to play and if you actually start getting into the number of times, somebody misses a trigger during a game of magic, it’s staggeringly high

3:12:53 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:12:53 pm – Toby Elliott:
magic, it’s staggeringly high. And one time nobody notices they miss and if you really want to, I think Ricky Hayashi was one less. She went and demonstrate this once they just called, he just called as opponent. Every time they missed a trigger. And it was all over the place and fundamentally a rule.

3:13:04 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:13:06 pm – Toby Elliott:
And of course, when we have upgrades and things and you know, these were triggers that were missed that were largely irrelevant or, you know, the opponent knew it was there and didn’t, you know, say anything, which is kind of bad too. And and so we we got to a point where like if we’re if we actually enforce these rules fully it would be a disaster. Somebody decides they want to come along and do this because magic is really hard people, make errors. And so it’s in the trigger case. It’s like well, obviously sometimes you’ll just miss a trigger because it’s irrelevant to you and we don’t want somebody calling you on that. Because what’s the fix? Oh yeah, well I wasn’t going to do anything anyway. Whatever, I guess. Now I get a warning and if I got three warnings for things I wasn’t gonna do anyway, I’ve got a game loss. That’s that’s pretty bad. So we started talking about.

3:13:50 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:13:52 pm – Toby Elliott:
you know the opponent also is involved in this. The opponent can’t just sit. There we go home. Yep. There’s nothing to see here and we started saying, Well, it’s Well, you know the opponent also is involved in this. The opponent can’t just sit. There we go home. Yep. There’s nothing to see here and we started saying Well it’s both Well, you know the opponent also is involved in this. The opponent can’t just sit. There we go home. Yep there’s nothing to see here and we started saying Well it’s both please players responsibility. Can we get to a place where we can come up with a more structured algorithmic approach to solving this problem? And Yeah obviously like anything it’s going to have some you know weird corner cases because magic has 25,000 cards or whatever. That all interacting totally weird ways. There’s probably a couple edges where better because it leads to more it’s messy but it’s on the whole organic gameplay. The opponent is still incentivize to catch you when you’re not doing when you’re missing triggers. There’s still penalties if you miss a trigger that could have benefited you in general. Um and but it’s also something where we don’t have to have the judge come in, listen to the situation hear what’s going on and then have to make an assessment like we don’t want Judge to be put in that position. Because of a judge was put in that position, then there’s a accusations of bias or they didn’t understand the game or they wanted to do this. Other thing that this is an algorithmic way we can say. Yeah, you missed that trigger and will investigating you if it’s suspicious but otherwise we just follow this algorithm and it fixes the game in a way that generally is coherent and makes And then we move on.

3:15:07 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:15:08 pm – Toby Elliott:
And so that was sort of the genesis there and we try to whole bunch of situations. People will remember things like lasting triggers which is was really

3:15:14 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:15:14 pm – Toby Elliott:
as bad as people make it out to me. But something of a false start, it wasn’t quite where we wanted to be, but it led to the right place which is all these things were fundamentally Players it should be okay for players to occasionally, miss triggers. And you need to figure out ways to mitigate that. We need to put some burden on the opponent to also be tracking things. And Involving the opponent was actually a really, really crucial step that was like the key thing because once you get the judge out of the equation, who’s the best person to assess what should happen, the opponent. The opponent is going to want to game loss because or match loss, whatever we’re not going to do that. So let’s let’s see if we gave the opponent certain constraints. can convey then work within those constraints to reach a situation where They may not necessarily be happy but they feel like, you know, An appropriate measure was taken and that was sort of always the underlying philosophical change. There was if we’re able to involve opponents and things we can we can probably mitigate a bunch of stuff, but we have to obviously constrain them.

3:16:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yes, and so that, and that sort of the way we took the lessons that we learned from hidden card era were like Hey it turns out having this a little bit of an in-game fix for. This is not really the end of the world and we giving the opponent certain choices allows them to effectively make the best strategic decision in terms of when it comes to in-game mitigation of potential advantage.

3:16:40 pm – Toby Elliott:
All right. it’s exactly the same thing with the same thing All right. And then again we that it’s exactly the same thing with hidden card air and and this sort of led on from Mr. Because this once we had the concept of the opponent, being able to get involved in the, in the penalty. Well, now where else can we apply this information? That’s an obvious place where you can say, Well, why don’t we just assume you made the worst possible play? Who’s the best person to decide? What worse possible play is situation. It’s your opponent. It’s not the judge. The judge has never going to

3:17:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
Mmm. Yeah.

3:17:05 pm – Toby Elliott:
enough deep, understanding of the game to be sure they can make the best possible ruling here, but the opponent has a lot of information and we give them what they need to say. Let’s assume the worst thing possible for that. You happened and move on from there.

3:17:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
Mm-hmm. So when it. So so specific to Ms. Trigger one of the one of these situations where the the stack or not, this one comes up a lot because these cards are played very often in modern, which is super popular format. modern, which is super popular So a player will say play Right now, the pact triggers, right? the choice of putting the trigger on the stack or not, this one comes up a lot because these cards are played very often in modern, which is super popular format. Right now, the pact triggers, right? So a player will say play

3:17:35 pm – Toby Elliott:

3:17:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
Pack to the Titan on their turn and then go to their next turn, miss their trigger unintentionally, and then cast a spell during their turn. And then the opponent goes, Hey, judge my opponent missed their trigger, I’d like to put it on the stack now,

3:17:53 pm – Toby Elliott:
Yep, don’t you look like Alexander earlier penalty? Still have to have teeth.

3:17:58 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:17:59 pm – Toby Elliott:
And you know, a trigger of that severity. If if you tapping mana is going to actually cause you this level of problem, you probably shouldn’t have missed it in the first place.

3:18:09 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:18:10 pm – Toby Elliott:
And yes. And and if you look back historically, this is still better than what was back then because if I untapped draw my card and then call the judge, and I’ve missed the trigger, then There is this opportunity to pay and so there’s still, you know, it’s more forgiving than used to be what it was. Just literally when the packs first came out. Wizards came to us and said So you know, under the under the IPG, and under policies, what’s gonna happen if they missed the trigger and we said they lose the game. and they’re like, Oh, really, could we just Like no. How about they lost 10 life like, what? Nobody, they were. They, I think they’d realize they might not have made those triggers is where we got into things

3:18:54 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:18:55 pm – Toby Elliott:
is where we got into things like, Well, okay, you can stick a something

3:18:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, I I remember that.

3:18:59 pm – Toby Elliott:
your deck to wash somebody your deck to wash somebody with a pack trigger, lift the thing off the top of their deck, take their card, and draw trigger, and it’s that important. Yeah, you kind of did. And so I’m actually okay with it functionally being a game loss in that situation because it’s also possible that you draw your card and say go And then, you know, you could have paid for your pack. So would have all been a okay.

3:19:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. And I think the bit that folks get hung up on when they’re talking about that situation is the fact that the opponent it, since they are not required to point out their opponents mistriggers. They are electing to do so when it gains them the most advantage and that feels a lot like something shady. And it’s like it’s one of those where I I understand where that comes from but like like you said, it’s still kind of better than it used to be before it didn’t matter. They just point it out and then default action, you lose the game. Well done, move on.

3:20:03 pm – Toby Elliott:
The opponent getting to decide how to punish you is, is fine here because you always, you always have a way to avoid it. Don’t miss them here.

3:20:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hmm. Yeah.

3:20:12 pm – Toby Elliott:
And if it was an irrelevant trigger,

3:20:12 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:20:14 pm – Toby Elliott:
your opponent probably can’t punish you for it and if it’s very relevant trigger, well, you really shouldn’t have missed it.

3:20:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
There you go. Yeah, that makes sense. Um, so speaking of modern triggers, I did warn you. I was gonna bring this one up but I was a lot of folks that are that feel very. Let’s say, let down by how chalice of the void interacts with the current Miss Trigger policy for the viewers that may not be may not be familiar if I control Childs of the void. Let’s say it’s on one and I cast, I cast Preordain and I miss my own trigger, my opponent also misses it and then I so I scratch too, I draw and then I draw my card and then I go to like play a land or something and then my opponent realizes wait a minute. That that trigger should have countered, your you, miss your chalice trigger on your own spell. And so at the moment the way policy currently handles that is I get a warning. I probably get an I probably have to answer a few questions because that’s very suspicious, but assuming I was doing that unintentionally, there’s not really any remedy here because putting the shirt on the stack won’t do anything that spells already resolved.

3:21:22 pm – Toby Elliott:
Hmm. Yeah. And that’s sort of one of those unfortunate places where you sort of have to avoid letting the perfect. Be the enemy of the good.

3:21:32 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:21:32 pm – Toby Elliott:
It does not a great It does not a great outcome It does not a great outcome for It does not a great outcome for child, so the void but there’s also not a great way to write the policy so that Charles will avoid makes intuitive sense. Like it like like the situation just described where they’ve described you know they’ve done the preordain. Everything else How would you fix that? I mean, we’re gonna start backing up, huge chunks of games. And what happens if they discovered it? You know, a little bit later When is the borders here? It’s like at some point you just have to have to say, Yeah it’s not the perfect solution here but you know both people could realize it was a trigger to be had. There should be an investigation because that is a somewhat suspicious situation. You do think it was just an innocent mistake. Both players have the chance to catch it and it’s probably not worth

3:22:13 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:22:16 pm – Toby Elliott:
radically altering a policy that’s working pretty well in 99 point whatever percent cases

3:22:22 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:22:22 pm – Toby Elliott:
The try to accommodate that one. I mean, somebody has an idea for how we might accommodate, chalice, I’d be interested. But you know, we’ve poked it, lots of people have poked it over the years and it all ends up, just really complicated for just a little gain on that card. And this, I mean, it’s hard to say what even would be the desired outcome there. best to just let it be and accept

3:22:40 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:22:43 pm – Toby Elliott:
that it’s not the most awesome most awesome solution for that particular case. it be and accept that it’s not the most awesome solution for that particular case. But, I mean, I’m always open to hearing other ideas about what we might do there.

3:22:52 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, and so then it’s it’s really interesting, a lot of times if I have these conversations with like like competitive minded players or whatever and they’re like, okay, so I should just always play a chalice deck and I’m like Yeah the problem is now you’re starting to get into the territory where you’re gonna be missing your own on purpose and that’s a problem.

3:23:09 pm – Toby Elliott:
Yeah. Oh yeah, no this is why I would never

3:23:10 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:23:12 pm – Toby Elliott:
let a Miss let a Miss, Chalice of the void trigger. Just go. Is there’s gonna be some questions that is the sort of thing where, if somebody misses it, I’m gonna start keeping an eye on them.

3:23:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, for sure.

3:23:22 pm – Toby Elliott:
because this is, you know, you want to make sure that was a one-off behavior and, you know, obviously, if they do it in a particularly suspicious situation, like had to

3:23:30 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:23:31 pm – Toby Elliott:
a spell under their trigger, or into their chalice or lose. That’s a serious investigation at that point, and he doesn’t end very

3:23:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
For sure.

3:23:39 pm – Toby Elliott:
well for them.

3:23:41 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:23:41 pm – Toby Elliott:
You know, people do mistry. I mean chalice, lavoid triggers are very easy to miss.

3:23:46 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:23:48 pm – Toby Elliott:
And so And so it’s it’s not like we we have to assume that there’s shenanigans going on here, a pattern of And so it’s it’s not like we we have to assume that there’s shenanigans going on here, a pattern of missing them consistently gets you a chat. It definitely gets you a chat.

3:23:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, for sure. Well and and even that be thankfully since like and the mystery of policy does do some work here because you’re getting a warning and it’s upgradable. So even if you are able to make a, even if you are able to make a make a case that you’re for getting an unintentionally, you only get to do that. So many times before, it’s gonna start negatively impacting your match

3:24:20 pm – Toby Elliott:

3:24:20 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:24:21 pm – Toby Elliott:
Yeah. do it once that’s, you know, once that’s, you know, Yeah. And and even before, then you do it once. That’s, you know, worrying you start doing it again in a suspicious situation. And There’s a lot of alarm bells going off.

3:24:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, right.

3:24:34 pm – Toby Elliott:
You probably it’s it’s not the Miss Trigger policy of that point, that’s causing the problem for you.

3:24:43 pm – Daniel Lee:
And it’s also helpful to notice that like Charles Avoid was printed, you know, back in 2003 with Meriden. So it was a, it seems like based on, you know, the way that similar sorts of things have been happening, recent have been templated recently, wizards is definitely going more in the You can’t cast, or Here’s a tax on the thing instead of making it a trigger that is missable, not handled super well.

3:25:06 pm – Toby Elliott:

3:25:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
So the so it’s a problem that’s So the so it’s a problem that’s kind of isolated to just the one card because there’s not a lot of other things that act, that act, that way that are all, so widely plate and popular formats.

3:25:14 pm – Toby Elliott:
Yeah and this happens a bunch is if wizards if there’s a problematic template um lean and arbiter comes to mind.

3:25:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Okay.

3:25:25 pm – Toby Elliott:
We will and if it’s something like like it’s something like like that’s that’s one where We will will work with wizards We will will work with wizards. And if it’s something like, like, that’s that’s one where we just basically said, do not ever use this wizards. that’s that’s one where we just basically said, do not ever use this wizards and if it’s something like, like, that’s that’s one where we just basically said, Do not ever use this template again and they’re like, Okay, that’s not that’s fine. We were really planning to use it much. Um, if they’re like if they come back and they say, Actually this is a template, we really want to use and plan to use a whole bunch of moving forward. We will figure out ways to accommodate like, like, if they came to me and said, Hey, we’re gonna print 17, chalice of the void variants, Oh we we might actually go and do that. Well what how do we radically reconfare? Miss triggers to reflect? The fact that this is going to be everywhere

3:25:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Exactly.

3:26:00 pm – Toby Elliott:
but wizards hasn’t expressed a lot of interest in that and so it’s one where it’s like. Yep, we’ve got one card here. That doesn’t work terribly well and not, it is lean and arbiter for that matter.

3:26:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, there’s been there’s been a handful discussion there. Someone mentioned, something a chat that I wanted to address. These mentioned that I’ve seen, I’ve seen a ton of head judges in the past year, deviate for chalice, usually the fix ends up being back up until the spell was on the stack. And and we did talk about the little bit like even in these simple case of a preordain where I have scribe too. And then drawn a card, like that’s like even in a grv scenario that’s still kind of a messy backup and so adding that to the Miss Trigger Paul

3:26:37 pm – Toby Elliott:

3:26:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
Trigger, Paul adding that to him, as Trigger doesn’t really like it might feel better in the way that like child gets to do what it gets to do. But like tell us had its chance, both players had to miss it for this for us to get here.

3:26:49 pm – Toby Elliott:
Yeah, and you get the weird situations where More information starts getting displayed. So for example, if I wrath into a chalice and I shouldn’t and I shouldn’t have it should have encountered and then we put all the

3:27:01 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:27:02 pm – Toby Elliott:
creatures into the graveyard and then you play something that brings, you know, you play faith reward or something and it brings them all back. You’re gonna back that up. Suddenly there’s a whole lot of information that’s been, you know, spread out and, you know, yikes like yeah. You just it just seems easier to be like, Yeah, you both missed it.

3:27:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, fair enough. Um, so I just wanted to make sure that we, at least address that we’re like. Yeah, no. I like, I, I hear that. I’ve seen a lot of the conversations about folks that are just like, no, I will deviate for Childs and I’m like, You gotta still recognize that’s a deviation from policy like yeah.

3:27:35 pm – Toby Elliott:
Yeah, I mean if you deviate because I just raft and we put the cards in the bin and nothing else has happened and then you go. Oh my God, wait Chalice. Yeah, that’s pretty, that’s a pretty mild deviation but I think it’s gonna rapidly spiral out from there.

3:27:49 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:27:50 pm – Toby Elliott:
And so, you know, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t want to set an expectation of a deviation there.

3:27:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. You don’t want to start rolling the You don’t want to start rolling Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You don’t want to start rolling the snowball down the hill. Yeah, absolutely. You don’t want to start rolling the snowball down the hill because it will get much bigger than you expected to um, So um, so the same person actually has a really good, a really interesting. Follow-up question, How is this different than a grv backup? Where the judge needs to make a call and if too much has happened or not? So I think that’s a really interesting point to make.

3:28:15 pm – Toby Elliott:
Either it’s a good question. Mostly comes down to scope and the fact that mistrict Grv is our catch-all for everything. It didn’t fall in another bucket. It’s a grv. and therefore, You know, the rules. Try, when we look at the comprehensive rules, the comprehensive rules are extremely mathematically rigorous and everything fits in super nicely because there’s actually a limited set of things. You can do. The comprehensive rule starts with a player, can’t do anything. Put in a rule that says You can do this, or you can do this, It’s an additive system where you can basically only work within these constraints.

3:28:53 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:28:53 pm – Toby Elliott:
Yeah, the IPG is the inverse in that players. Can lit a theoretically do anything

3:28:59 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:29:00 pm – Toby Elliott:
they and they do periodically do completely in the same things that there is no way to anticipate.

3:29:06 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:29:06 pm – Toby Elliott:
Oh, Grv ends up in this catch-all, which is, we don’t have an infraction where we Oh, grv ends up in this catch-all, which is, We don’t have an infraction where we can sort of write, you a good procedure or a process that can handle all the myriad possible ways that somebody just messed up a game. And it gives some guidance, it has a few things that it does try to do it and it, but on the whole, it’s This is a big, this is sort of your big catchall. So under Miss Triggers, we already have mistriggers. As this thing where, you know, we have processes that work pretty well for almost all situations. So there’s not a need to fall back in the same way that there is in Grv, where it’s like, this could be anything, we don’t want you to back up. But given the, you know, this literally could be anything, we have to give you a lot more judgment here.

3:29:54 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:29:55 pm – Toby Elliott:
And so the. And so that’s the difference is that grv is such a And so and so that’s the difference is that Grv is such a catch-all. That we can’t rely on giving you process to solve all situations there, and we have to use more judgment than we do around things like it and card error or Ms. Trigger.

3:30:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
And to, and so there’s one other point, I think that we can make here where adding, so at the moment, mistrigger handles, all your Miss Trigger scenarios, Grv handles, all of your gameplay, errors, that haven’t fallen under some other category and to add this one bit from one to here specifically because of one card is like That’s at some point. We have to make a judgment call when documents, keeping the documents it’s the complexity creep of the simple, and easier to learn is a good goal. That is definitely something we pursue.

3:30:44 pm – Toby Elliott:
It’s also protective of the judges because every time you back up are

3:30:49 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:30:49 pm – Toby Elliott:
introducing the possibility of a bias accusation or risking that you’ve

3:30:52 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:30:54 pm – Toby Elliott:
done, you actually misunderstood the situation or something else, which is fine, we trust judges, we want them to do it but we also want to protect them and done. situation or something else, which is fine. We trust judges, we want them to do it but we also want to protect them and if if blaming the documents because the document told them to do a thing is actually really powerful because

3:31:11 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:31:12 pm – Toby Elliott:
If we start seeing well, you know, something you can back up in mist trigger situations, then you’re then you’re opening up to, well, that judge didn’t back up for this one and therefore, he’s biased or whatever or lost the game because the judge chose not to do this thing. We only we haven’t in Grv because there’s no other alternative. We have to have some mechanism for the judge to try to fix the game, we discourage backing up, like crazy. I mean, like, it’s not something that should be like the default tool in your arsenal. But, but there we have to expose and we wouldn’t do it. If we didn’t have to, we have to kind of expose the judge to a little bit more of an act, as a potential for accusation there. Whereas it’s not really necessary for any for the ones where there’s a more specific infraction with a better solution for it.

3:31:56 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right and also it also is important to note that it’s not like the Grv just says if you feel like backing up go for it, like there are some specific things you’re supposed to keep an eye out for. out for. when Right? to note that it’s not like the Grv that it’s not like the Grv just says If you feel like backing up go for it, like there are some specific things you’re supposed to keep an eye out for. There’s a fair amount of guidance on when it would be appropriate to back when it would be appropriate to back up versus certain things that might and like I know a lot of judges that’ll use the that’ll use a guiding rule of like if there’s a card draw and there’s a fetch land anywhere on the board, then don’t back it up.

3:32:21 pm – Toby Elliott:

3:32:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
For example, right?

3:32:22 pm – Toby Elliott:
And And And what but crucially that will vary from judge to judge.

3:32:26 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yes, true.

3:32:27 pm – Toby Elliott:
And that’s not a desired outcome. We would farther everybody did the

3:32:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
No, it’s not.

3:32:30 pm – Toby Elliott:
same way. It’s just we recognize that some possible in this situation whereas it

3:32:34 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:32:34 pm – Toby Elliott:
possible in the more restricted situations,

3:32:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, absolutely. Since we’re still on these subject of Miss Trigger, there is a new relatively new template that has come out in the last couple of years, you know. But since the last time, this trigger policy went through any sort of major overhaul and that is a triggers that the triggered abilities that only trigger once each turn. I’m curious what your take is on how, how current policy handles those.

3:33:01 pm – Toby Elliott:
It’s fine. Um, so what what the trigger itself always triggers? Like there’s there’s no like from a rules perspective. And from a game perspective, the trigger always triggers by definition, it happened. This trigger is a recognition that people failed to recognize that it happened. That that doesn’t mean that it didn’t

3:33:21 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:33:22 pm – Toby Elliott:
happen. It simply means that nobody realized it had And so it triggers only once is just

3:33:25 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:33:27 pm – Toby Elliott:
fine it triggered back then it happened. You just didn’t pick it up. And so, so there’s no actual policy adjustments needed for this particular template. It’s you missed that you nobody’s gonna be able to claim, Oh well, I didn’t catch it the previous time. So this is the first time as triggering this turn. No, it triggered. It’s just, you missed it.

3:33:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay. Yeah so so for example, just to make crystal clear on where we’re coming with this. If there’s one that says, Whenever you cast a spell gain to life, this triggers only once each turn, I cast a spell, I don’t do anything, I don’t change my life total, nothing go into combat, whatever I cast another spell and I go Oh wait a minute. Well I didn’t do it before. So I get it now, right?

3:34:05 pm – Toby Elliott:
No, it triggered back then.

3:34:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
And I didn’t gain the life, so that trigger is missed. Hey, opponent, do you want your hit? Do you want me to gain two life? Probably not.

3:34:13 pm – Toby Elliott:
We’ll see.

3:34:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
All right, cool. So let’s go back to something. You mentioned earlier, where there’s hasn’t been a whole lot going on the last few years.

3:34:24 pm – Toby Elliott:
Well, not not in policy world.

3:34:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
so, Not involves, right, exactly. So I remember back. So obviously since the Covid-19 pandemic, really hit a North American, particularly in March of 2020, there was this immediate and huge hardship to digital events. And I, I believe there was a very quickly, a document put together that was like a digital mtr and a digital ipg, Did you have a hand in writing those?

3:34:52 pm – Toby Elliott:
Yes, not. I mean I I was consulted, I didn’t

3:34:56 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:34:57 pm – Toby Elliott:
write them myself. It the timings coincidental there. Those digital.

3:34:59 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:35:00 pm – Toby Elliott:
What were coming out covid or not? They were they were visual. We’ve been, we’ve been reviewing them for months. Um, so that was purely coincidence. I mean, wizards got very, very lucky that they produced a digital client, right before Covid hit, and all the rest of it, they clearly didn’t plan that.

3:35:16 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:35:18 pm – Toby Elliott:
Um, but but yeah, the digital mtr, the digital ipg. They knew that they were going to have, you know, rivals league type things. Even if we still had a very healthy pro tour GP circuit, Um, so that was actually orthogonal in terms of the documents being produced for that. Um, yeah, Matt, I mean magic shut down from a paper play

3:35:42 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:35:43 pm – Toby Elliott:
anything and so a policy we made a conscious choice at the time to kind of have policy reflecting that um mostly because we don’t you know if there’s if judges don’t have a reason to keep up then it it’s hard on them and you know dribbling out updates periodically that you have to pay attention to that. You’re not going to use Well you’re probably not going to get them. So So we consciously chose to say Let’s just sort of put policy on hold for everything other than absolute. Oh my God. We have to give you some guidance. Here, companion comes to mind.

3:36:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
Mmm. Yeah.

3:36:23 pm – Toby Elliott:
But but for the most part, you know, little little things here and there we were not, we were not going to do because odds were pretty good. Nobody was gonna have to deal with on a paper tournament. Um, and so that was a conscious decision. Now we’re, it’s interesting now because we’re well, we’re not on the other side of the pandemic but that’s what’s up.

3:36:41 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:36:43 pm – Toby Elliott:
That aside, there is paper play opening up and we’re happening, but the world looks very, very different.

3:36:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yes, absolutely.

3:36:50 pm – Toby Elliott:
Now, I’m not saying, like, you know, the GPS are gone. The landscape of magic play across the entire ecosystem, fnms pro, tours. Everything is radically different. An F&m especially nowadays looks very very different than it. Did three years ago.

3:37:10 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:37:11 pm – Toby Elliott:
the most notable thing is, Standard is not really played very much at the moment.

3:37:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
That might change here in a couple of months, but

3:37:18 pm – Toby Elliott:
Well yes, and that certainly a possibility.

3:37:19 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:37:21 pm – Toby Elliott:
I’m not actually sure if standard is going to come back that much. I think you’re gonna see a lot of pioneer play in the next few months

3:37:28 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:37:29 pm – Toby Elliott:
are absolutely gonna drive a lot of what people pick up.

3:37:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Exactly. And that was my point. Is that the the second season of Rcq’s is feeding a standard RC at that point?

3:37:39 pm – Toby Elliott:

3:37:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
So that’s

3:37:39 pm – Toby Elliott:
Okay. Yes. People might there might be some picked up interest in standard but

3:37:43 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:37:43 pm – Toby Elliott:
even even beyond that. You know, wizards. Corporate philosophies have changed a lot over the past. I mean, the past decade, really, but really over the last three years. And they’ve, you know, they still believe competitive play is important, but they also have come to realize that casual play is also seriously important.

3:38:05 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:38:05 pm – Toby Elliott:
And so, we need to have documents that reflect this world. But going that is a lengthy, time-consuming process, that involves a whole bunch of people and involves a whole bunch of sign-offs on lots of different things. And one of the reasons I’m sort of, I want to be a little circumspect here. Is that, you know, early on, I would be like, Oh yeah, I’m sure we’ll have an update next quarter and then no actually we’ve got a you know, we need three more sign-offs or whatever. Whatever.

3:38:34 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:38:35 pm – Toby Elliott:
So I, I promising when documents are coming up, they are more like, I can

3:38:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, for sure.

3:38:37 pm – Toby Elliott:
promise you that because Um, promise you that because work. Um, there’s lots of really interesting stuff coming and pretty happy with where we’re going, but I don’t know where we’re going to get to, and, I don’t know when and I’m sorry, I can’t give you better information that right now. I don’t have it.

3:38:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, fair enough.

3:38:54 pm – Toby Elliott:
Um, I have I have plans but I don’t you know, those plans are not, I’m gonna go tweak you know the hidden card error in the IPG and release. Version. This is this is plans for how do we

3:39:05 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:39:07 pm – Toby Elliott:
make these documents, really reflect the world. We’re currently, in rather than the one we were in three years ago pre-pandemic.

3:39:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. And and anyone that anyone that saw our conversation with Scott Larabee a few months ago, when shortly, after the new, the premiere play announcement was made. We learned about Rcqs and the regional championships and things like that. Scott alluded to much the same much, the same thing for, in much, the same way.

3:39:32 pm – Toby Elliott:
And and to be reassuring like the IPG is not going away, there will be a There will be a documents more. There’s actually way more work being done in the MTR space in the IPG space. The IPG is a good solid document for

3:39:42 pm – Daniel Lee:
For sure.

3:39:43 pm – Toby Elliott:
for competitive play like it, where is the MTR talks about DCI numbers you know, using worker to do very

3:39:51 pm – Daniel Lee:
It does.

3:39:52 pm – Toby Elliott:
very thing. There’s a lot of the MTR spoiler.

3:39:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
Archaic references.

3:39:57 pm – Toby Elliott:
there will be the entire will not look. Some exactly like it looks currently today.

3:40:02 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:40:02 pm – Toby Elliott:
Um, I would expect to see more change in that space. Like if you if you know the IPG and are currently panicking you gotta learn a new IPG. No you’re gonna get a document what’s a lot? Like the IPG? But It’ll be, it’ll be contextualized in ways that I think will be more useful and give better tools to both organizers and judges for how to handle events in the new world.

3:40:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right on cool. That’s it. That’s that’s really exciting. It would be really nice to have an MTR. That doesn’t refer to Grand Prix trials that have not happened in three plus years.

3:40:36 pm – Toby Elliott:

3:40:36 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:40:37 pm – Toby Elliott:
But But while we’re But while we’re in there, doing all that surgery, why don’t we fix 17 other things? Oh wait, two of those. Require us to go talk to R&D or sorry, studio X. Um, and so, you know, or

3:40:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right.

3:40:49 pm – Toby Elliott:
or to go to legal, legal is always one

3:40:53 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:40:54 pm – Toby Elliott:
like, like times, I’ve had to take a policy to legal is not insignificant and that is not a fast process and a lot of people have to weigh in on

3:41:01 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:41:02 pm – Toby Elliott:
on what what is going on in this particular space. And and so, you know, I would love to give you all the stuff, but I can’t and I can’t promise when because the

3:41:12 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:41:12 pm – Toby Elliott:
answers it will be done when it’s done and I would rather done right?

3:41:14 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:41:15 pm – Toby Elliott:
like the current documents. Will live through, okay? As you say it was Grand. Prix trials. That’s, you know, not the end of the world.

3:41:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
No, for sure.

3:41:24 pm – Toby Elliott:
You can you You can you documents to be work. So I would rather we release really good, new documents then sort of have

3:41:30 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:41:31 pm – Toby Elliott:
a half thing where it’s like, Well, you know, here’s an update but there’s another thing coming soon or

3:41:35 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:41:35 pm – Toby Elliott:
something. So we’ll see.

3:41:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, Nathan Long comments. I just want an IPG update, so it’s bump back up to the top of the page on the Rules and Documents website.

3:41:46 pm – Toby Elliott:
Probably make that happen.

3:41:48 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay, okay. So I wanted to shift gear. So you talked about the IPG already being a pretty solid document for competitive play. There is an event that happened here in LA Last weekend. That was a it was a, it was held at something resembling competitive rules, enforcement level and the format was commander, And so the IPG as it currently reads is not written with multiplayer. With multiplayer in mind. So I’m, I’m curious. If you think that’s a, that’s a direction that maybe it should go, or if that’s not necessary.

3:42:24 pm – Toby Elliott:
It’s not happening. Um, completely.

3:42:25 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:42:27 pm – Toby Elliott:
So In competitive, multiplayer, play of magic is. A giant nightmare As far as I’m concerned. Um, wizards isn’t particularly interested in making it happen. Um, it’s it has immense immense problems that I think our largely in unsolvable I the event lasts Saturday. if a team had decided to get together and hack the event, They could have extremely, I think, if you probably gotten 20 people together, you could probably have hacked that event significantly, the multiplayer Magic. Magic is incredibly complicated game. And multiplayer. Magic means that you have a whole bunch of different incentives at any given time. And plays that are legal, may not be. Legal in the eyes of how people think the game should be played in

3:43:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
Mmm. Yeah.

3:43:31 pm – Toby Elliott:
particular. Collusion is an absolute bear. Um, people have to be able to make bad plays. How do I know that this bad play? Wasn’t me? Helping my friend out. If two, if two players sit down on a four player pot of magic determined to collude They will, they will be able to do so and almost certainly win the game, unless the other two players realize what is happening and basically unspoken agree to do the same thing.

3:44:01 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:44:01 pm – Toby Elliott:
It become it always has to devolve down into a 1v1 scenario in order for it to be to work out. And even if you are and that’s just and that’s the intentional abuse one, which is so easy to do, but even in a situation where you don’t intend nobody’s trying to abuse things, multiplayer frequently wedges its way into a situation where one player has to decide which of the other two wins. And that’s itself. A collusion bribery nightmare.

3:44:28 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:44:28 pm – Toby Elliott:
Um, like there’s a not at some point, I do not want to be the judge at a table where somebody goes for a combo win. And somebody else counters, it. And then the third person encounters, the counter spell. Or no, particularly good reason.

3:44:46 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, okay.

3:44:48 pm – Toby Elliott:
Exactly. And and that’s that’s all legal that

3:44:48 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:44:50 pm – Toby Elliott:
has to be legal. There’s no way you could. I mean, you’re only way around that, is you have to start doing things, like, judges will decide as a play was legal, it was collusion or not. And I, you know, I talked a lot already about protecting judges and that is just there is no protection for judges. At that point, it’s it’s an absolute

3:45:07 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:45:09 pm – Toby Elliott:
nightmare scenario. And If the prizes start becoming significant and players are given ramp up enough time, I mean even in one V1 pro tour play we sort, we saw teams form just to get that tiny edge in scouting information sharing.

3:45:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yep. Absolutely.

3:45:27 pm – Toby Elliott:
Well, now take that model to multiplayer play where you might end up in the same pod. If you, if your team big enough, you will in each round end up with some people together and you suddenly you’re starting to manipulate tournament standings up. There’s all sorts of other rules of magic. That fundamentally care about the fact, there’s only two players in the game. Things, like, in two player play leaving, the game, is an action that is totally fine game. So,

3:45:57 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:45:57 pm – Toby Elliott:
What happens if I leave the game in a multiplayer game? Well, that’s real messy.

3:46:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
A lot of stuff.

3:46:02 pm – Toby Elliott:
Yeah, and and one of the fundamental rules of tournament play and competitive play is at any given time. I, you have to be allowed to leave

3:46:12 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:46:12 pm – Toby Elliott:
for any reason. No excuses necessary. If you want to get up and walk away from a table, you have to be able to do that. And that causes severe problems for multiplayer play.

3:46:22 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:46:23 pm – Toby Elliott:
And there’s there’s just this is just scratching the tip of the iceberg. There is this immense litany of huge problems that we have and if you actually look back at the history of competitive magic, it is always devolved back into one V1. Um, two-headed giant for example, is a one V1 format,

3:46:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. I was gonna, I was actually gonna, I was gonna bring that up a tournament that you. And I were both at pro tour San Diego in 2017, 2018. I think it was was Two-headed giant. Draft.

3:46:54 pm – Toby Elliott:
And and fundamentally that was a 1v1 format involved four players.

3:46:56 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:46:57 pm – Toby Elliott:
Four players. Four players, it’s still took us six months of engineering and planning to get to a place where the rules could even support that.

3:47:05 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:47:05 pm – Toby Elliott:
Because we had to do things like, well there’s only one game being played. What does it mean for game loss? Um, think

3:47:12 pm – Daniel Lee:
Match point penalty.

3:47:15 pm – Toby Elliott:
Yes math. Exactly. I mean that’s sort of hackery like not. Now try to apply math equipment penalties to Commander. It’s like oh God.

3:47:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh no. Yeah.

3:47:25 pm – Toby Elliott:
And so you start scratching the surface of this and it just becomes worse and worse and you know if people want to play Commander competitively for fun, you know, it’s not my thing. But cool, go knock yourself out, do your thing. The moment you start like trying to actually structure it and it just feels like you’re gonna, you’re just asking for trouble. Like you’re welcome to do it. I’m nobody’s gonna stop you.

3:47:47 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:47:48 pm – Toby Elliott:
But, but if you’re not going to have the document support, you actually need when something bad does finally go down.

3:47:55 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:47:56 pm – Toby Elliott:
And that that’s unfortunate, but

3:47:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
It occurs.

3:47:59 pm – Toby Elliott:

3:48:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
It occurs to me. There’s something we haven’t mentioned. Do you play a lot of commander yourself?

3:48:03 pm – Toby Elliott:
Oh yeah, I play a ton of Commander. I’m on the rules

3:48:04 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:48:06 pm – Toby Elliott:
So I I about five.

3:48:06 pm – Daniel Lee:
There we go.

3:48:08 pm – Toby Elliott:
Um, lighting here because it’s getting

3:48:09 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:48:12 pm – Toby Elliott:
dark in Boston.

3:48:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
That happens. But yeah, I just wanted folks to know like like it’s not like you’re just sitting from an ivy tower here. You play a lot of commander, you’re not mistaken after this. You actually have a commander stream that you’re

3:48:25 pm – Toby Elliott:
In fact, I’m strict with eight tonight, the RC gets together once a week and just streams on our channel.

3:48:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
right on. There you go.

3:48:32 pm – Toby Elliott:
And so yeah. And in fact, it’s funny because up until up until the pandemic, The RC had only ever played a game once together in the entire basically history of magic. And that was it Gen Con in 2019.

3:48:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right on.

3:48:47 pm – Toby Elliott:
So everybody’s like, Oh yeah, Sheldon’s play group. I’m like I wish it was Sheldon’s play group. We never get a chance to play, but never got to a situation where all four of us were at the same pro tour at the same time.

3:48:57 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:48:58 pm – Toby Elliott:
Um, and so we hadn’t actually played together until that gencon events. And then, of course, when the pandemic, sorry we’re like, well we’re all moving to streaming and, you know, twitching all the rest of it. Why don’t we just do that? And so we played a ton, we actually played a ton since In person as a group.

3:49:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right on. That’s that’s really exciting here. And then also like,

3:49:19 pm – Toby Elliott:
There’s terrible magic. Oh my God, you know, when I talk about how hard it is to play, I mean it paper play is incredibly hard as a game already for one like Pioneer

3:49:28 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:49:30 pm – Toby Elliott:
For one like Pioneer, Commander is way more complicated than that. The, and then, of course, is online. So you’re you certainly have a little tiny picture of everybody’s board. We make so many errors that the idea of this being something that would engender penalties is horrifying.

3:49:46 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:49:46 pm – Toby Elliott:
And then, we’re talking about, you know, Some of the, you know, some of the longest serving judges in the program, making the brutal errors

3:49:54 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:49:55 pm – Toby Elliott:
non-stop. I mean, that chat is we have table judges in chat who just tell us all the things we did wrong. This really illustrated. I mean the level of complexity you’re talking about here is incredibly high. It’s another reason why trying to take it super seriously? Actually is gonna, you know, it’s painful. Is the actual enforcement of errors in these situations is going to be everywhere. Because man is just so much more complicated this for boards to keep track of and things going on everywhere.

3:50:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, it’s and it’s a it can be a real mess. And then even when you just start, trying to think about how penalties might work, it’s like Okay. Well, how do you expand the idea of single Grv double Grv to single Grv failure, to maintain among four players? Like so could like two players get

3:50:39 pm – Toby Elliott:

3:50:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
grvs the other two, get failure maintain and that it’s yeah, it it

3:50:44 pm – Toby Elliott:
But there’s a lot of yeah, it gets

3:50:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
gets real crazy real fast.

3:50:47 pm – Toby Elliott:
real crazy.

3:50:48 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, so we’ve got about 10 minutes left here. I’m gonna go pull up some things from the chat here. Nate Dogg wanted to add a point to your thing about how colluding in commander games. Like, you have to be prepared for that possibility. So, a player attacking with Ramses, Assassin, Lord attacks one player and then that player concedes, and then the Ramsey’s player wins the game.

3:51:13 pm – Toby Elliott:
Yeah. Well that one I believe the trigger works such as if they get to the attack they win. Anyway. Yeah, well that I believe the trigger works such as if they get to the attack they win. Anyway.

3:51:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, yeah. And

3:51:19 pm – Toby Elliott:
Think I’m really for the card, but I think that works.

3:51:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
yeah, me me neither but I remember vague enough that like yeah, that that’s basically the situation and so

3:51:26 pm – Toby Elliott:
yeah, I mean

3:51:26 pm – Daniel Lee:
so, so Nate’s. Yeah, Nate’s, a contribution was that

3:51:29 pm – Toby Elliott:

3:51:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
I told them all. That’s legal. You’ll quickly find your casual You’ll quickly find your casual play A contribution was that? A contribution was that? I told them all. That’s legal. You’ll quickly. Find your casual play grouply. No longer be interested in playing with you.

3:51:35 pm – Toby Elliott:
well yeah, and that’s the secret to

3:51:35 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:51:37 pm – Toby Elliott:
Commander is the appropriate way of resolving a dispute and Commander is you throw a pillow at somebody

3:51:45 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:51:45 pm – Toby Elliott:
or, you know, don’t engage in violence kids, but metaphorically speaking, you taught, you know, you taught the person, the right rising

3:51:51 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, like okay. Really?

3:51:54 pm – Toby Elliott:
commander should be, you get the comfy chair. Like like Commander only really works. I mean, the competitive players, you know, they worked to a certain extent, but Fundamentally a lot of it really only works because you’re willing to say and we’re not going to worry about this. Yeah, you missed a trigger, return to go and whatever.

3:52:15 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:52:16 pm – Toby Elliott:
It’s fine. Um, it recognizes that the game is fundamentally gonna be kind of messed up at various points, and that’s a okay. Y’all can figure it out. Um, And, and so trying to then, apply a structured set of rules to. That is It just seems terrifying to me.

3:52:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
we have a, we have a question from B-PRIL regarding regarding the MTR

3:52:39 pm – Toby Elliott:

3:52:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
philosophy. Like he’s wondering if it’s a similar to the Split. When the jar became its own document in that it’s meant to be shorter and easier to understand.

3:52:53 pm – Toby Elliott:
I think we need to get better tools to organize to local game store organizers for sure.

3:52:58 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:52:58 pm – Toby Elliott:
Um, like I said, I can’t really talk in specifics because I don’t want to set people up for disappointment when it doesn’t turn out to be the way I described it at some point and I thought it was awesome. But but yes one of the things we do talk about a lot is that the MTR is kind of an overwhelming document and game stores. Need more hand holding and less rules.

3:53:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hmm. Yeah.

3:53:20 pm – Toby Elliott:
But you still need to have tournament rules for. Pro tours. I mean, like you, you have to go and do things like like It’s super easy for me to say. Yeah, you play with magic cards. And that’s a rule that has to apply at game stores and a pro tours.

3:53:37 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:53:38 pm – Toby Elliott:
But then you start to get into well what constitutes a magic card and at

3:53:42 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:53:42 pm – Toby Elliott:
the gate at the local level. You play with magic cards is pretty much sufficient because everybody’s like, Oh yeah, that’s a magic card. That’s not a magic card um but somewhere for the pro tour, you need to have written down a magic card is regulation size and has the following characteristics and blah blah which totally is overkill for any store owner.

3:54:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hmm. Right.

3:54:01 pm – Toby Elliott:
We’re pulling necessary somewhere. And so, you know, finding a way to give the store owner that handholding, while still having all the technicalities needed. That’s that’s a lot of, the sort of attention, we’re exploring and trying to figure out how best to handle,

3:54:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
All right, cool. Yeah. He one of the ways he put it was, was it designed for the for the person behind the counter and it sounds like that. That’s, that’s very much, a concern that y’all are focusing on when

3:54:23 pm – Toby Elliott:
Absolutely. And this and this reflects the ecosystem because a lot of magic play in stores, now is Commander

3:54:30 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:54:30 pm – Toby Elliott:
and commander doesn’t need the same sort of MTR emphasis that, you know, he’s like, Oh, you can’t sanction commander? Like, Of course, you can sanction Commander, you can sanction literally anything. Because that’s the whole point of sanction. Casual,

3:54:42 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:54:43 pm – Toby Elliott:
but, it does mean that there’s a whole lot of rules in the MTR that Are either maybe a good ideas or don’t even apply and that. And so when I say you know, the ecosystem has changed. That’s the sort of thing we need to start reflecting. Is that the there’s an audience for Guy behind the counter girl behind the counter who needs to go and run a commander tournament. And by tournament I mean sit them all down and let them find groups who want to play together.

3:55:09 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:55:10 pm – Toby Elliott:
Like that’s technically a tournament.

3:55:10 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:55:12 pm – Toby Elliott:
It’s a sanction event, but it’s not a tournament in the meaningful sense. So how do we reflect that in our documents? So that they have what they need?

3:55:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, it’s very different. It’s very serving, very, very disparate populations in terms of like what they’re trying to do.

3:55:27 pm – Toby Elliott:
Right? But I don’t want you running a pioneer tournament by putting everybody in the middle of saying. Okay, go find people who want to play the same game you want to play. Like there’s a time and place for everything but the real revelation of magic of the past. You know, five years it’s not even just pandemic is There’s space for magic is a system that accommodates many different games. and not just not just from a structural standpoint but from a atmosphere and, you know, goal standpoint and, you know, you don’t

3:55:57 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:55:58 pm – Toby Elliott:
want a winner, takes all commanderprising where it might make sense for your standard thing.

3:56:04 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:56:05 pm – Toby Elliott:
And so this this is sort of guideline that’s really important to convey to people because these are all these environments now exist and are very popular. They’re, you know, it it’s not just commanders. Popular pioneer is going to be popular. Let’s make sure we give you an environment that works for pioneer.

3:56:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
It’s gonna say I don’t have my my Lotus Field deck that handy to be like Yeah yeah it is gonna be popular.

3:56:27 pm – Toby Elliott:
Right, I think, I think you’re gonna see a lot of pioneer in the next six Alright, I think, I think you’re gonna see a lot of pioneer in the next six months.

3:56:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hey, I’m happy to hear that because that means I get to cast more emergent ultimatums. Um, okay, so we’ve got, we got time for just a couple of more here. So there someone was mentioning something that comes to companion information at SCG Columbus, all the

3:56:43 pm – Toby Elliott:

3:56:46 pm – Daniel Lee:
head judges for the weekend decided that if you have presented a companion for game one, it is presumed. You’re using that companion for the rest of the games that match. Unless otherwise stated

3:56:55 pm – Toby Elliott:

3:56:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
That way you kind of reduce the feel bad if they forget to explicitly announce it or see I don’t know. I feel like there’s more complication here because then he says or shuffle their companion to their deck for game two onward. And I’m like, at that point you’ve kind of made a pretty bad mistake and I that feels a little bit I feel like there’s more there’s more to it than that that would have to happen.

3:57:17 pm – Toby Elliott:
Well, if you shuffle your companion, your deck that just means that you did the same things that anytime you ever felt screwed up. You just you just picked up all your board and shuffled in your companion with on the board.

3:57:27 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:57:27 pm – Toby Elliott:
um and that’s that’s an unfortunate situation and I think it’s not unreasonable if you actually study what the MTR prescribes as the pregame procedure, Almost nobody ever follows it.

3:57:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Verbatim as it’s prescribed. Yeah, for sure.

3:57:46 pm – Toby Elliott:
You know, nothing to happen in extremely specific times and if you screw up that timing a little bit it generally doesn’t You know, nothing happened in extremely specific times and if you screw up that timing a little bit, it generally doesn’t matter. um, and so I think that is a reasonable thing to to acknowledge that, you know, perfection in pre-game procedure is not something that we spend a lot of time really enforcing or penalizing and if the intent is very obvious of what’s going on, like if you built a companion deck and you presented a companion in game one, Unless you explicitly sending game to you weren’t using it. It’s probably a good shot that. Let’s, let’s take you assume word that you’re using it. I I think that’s a really

3:58:25 pm – Daniel Lee:

3:58:26 pm – Toby Elliott:
default and Somebody who’s trying to rules lawyer. The pre-game procedure to deny you. A companion is kind of the same as somebody who’s trying to rules lawyer on. Exactly. When you put Harrow into your graveyard,

3:58:42 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh sure. Okay.

3:58:42 pm – Toby Elliott:
um so you know maybe out of order sequencing is totally fine and, you know, default assumptions If players have a shared assumption, we don’t need to intervene.

3:58:54 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, fair enough. That makes sense. So I’ve got, I got one more and we’re gonna end us on this because it gives you a chance to tell me that I was wrong about something if you want.

3:59:02 pm – Toby Elliott:

3:59:02 pm – Daniel Lee:
So I wrote an article recently about see about communication policy violations and a situation that was brought to my attention that might fall under that. And I seemed to think it that it could. So there was a so it’s using one of the mode of one of the modal double face cars. That’s a land on the back side. So the example I used with Seagate

3:59:22 pm – Toby Elliott:

3:59:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
restoration so let’s say at some point let’s say game one, I played it as Seagate reborn and so I turned it around in the sleeve and then it got destroyed, the game ended whatever and it’s still land side, front, land side showing right.

3:59:36 pm – Toby Elliott:

3:59:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
showing right. showing right. So then next game, I opponent cast foxes, I reveal my hand and so they showing right. foxes, I reveal my hand and so they see that, That’s a land. Don’t process. That that’s actually a spell choose something else. And then the next let’s say, let’s say the later that turned the very next turn, I then go Oh I’m gonna cast Seagate restoration and I flip it back over and they’re like wait that wasn’t in your that I thought that was a land. And so I ran through the argument to say that I was saying it was cpv is a little strong. I was in entertaining the notion that it might be because I looked at it from the perspective of this, the name of an object in a zone is free information and therefore we are kind of misrepresenting the name of this object unless I like unless I point out and go that’s actually a spell or that’s actually seagate restoration. So I thought that was it was meant as an interesting thing but apparently a lot of folks have been saying this is not a penalty and Daniel is wrong and I like that’s fine. I can be wrong.

4:00:32 pm – Toby Elliott:
No, that’s a very interesting case. I think it is not unreasonable. To say that you did not represent the spells in your hand. Um now the counter-argument here is that see it? Well, this would have been stronger a couple of years ago. In Seagate restoration is a very different looking magic card.

4:00:54 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:00:55 pm – Toby Elliott:
And then I mean like, like it has the different colored text etc. Etc.

4:00:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right, that’s true.

4:01:00 pm – Toby Elliott:
So, I think back then it was actually reasonable to say. You knew what that card was.

4:01:06 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:01:06 pm – Toby Elliott:
And I think that’s you know, there’s an investigation here, certainly to be like did you really not know what Seagate Restoration was then especially a constructed competitive tournament? That’s something now And I think that’s you know, there’s an an investigation here, certainly to be like did you really not know what Seagate Restoration was then especially a constructed competitive tournament? That’s something now that we’re in a world where there’s 17 variants on each card.

4:01:20 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:01:21 pm – Toby Elliott:
safe, an assumption to make and I think it is reasonable and obviously there’s an investigation to have here. But I think it is reasonable to pull

4:01:28 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:01:29 pm – Toby Elliott:
them aside and them aside and be like, you know, with this have changed your play. If you had realized this other card was in the hand. um, and obviously there’s an investigation because, you know, If they played a seventh land and then were able to play it, well, you might not have taken it under the hope that they wouldn’t draw the seventh land and we don’t want to give freebie. So I wouldn’t I certainly would not be blanket saying, Well, that’s obviously a cpv.

4:01:54 pm – Daniel Lee:

4:01:55 pm – Toby Elliott:
But I think there is an investigation where you can talk to the players and figure out what’s going on and declare. Yes, An assumption was made here, that was not valid due to a communication problem, you Communicate the cards wrongly so I can see a path for it so so I don’t get to say you’re wrong, I don’t entirely right, but I’d say you’re more right than wrong in that the

4:02:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
All right.

4:02:20 pm – Toby Elliott:
possible exists.

4:02:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, for sure. And one of the things that I pointed out too, you mentioned, you know, because the backside of These Like it has the white text on a darker background. Like yeah, so

4:02:29 pm – Toby Elliott:

4:02:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
So one of the things that I’d pointed out in the article was that the way that players play play with pathways is there’s like they just leave them on whatever side they last put them on so you can see those all the time. And that’s not all that weird.

4:02:39 pm – Toby Elliott:

4:02:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
But okay, we are a little bit over But okay, we are a little bit over And that’s not all that weird. But okay, we are a little bit over time so we’re gonna go ahead and call it here. Thank you so much for joining us. Toby, it’s been wonderful. Having you been?

4:02:49 pm – Toby Elliott:

4:02:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. It’s been a pleasure talking to you. It’s been a pleasure talking to you. Yeah. Yeah. It’s been a pleasure talking to you. Having you been. Yeah, it’s been a pleasure talking to you. Thanks everyone in the chat for participating. Yeah. you. Thanks everyone in the chat for participating. Having you been. It’s been a pleasure talking to you. Thanks everyone in the chat for Thanks everyone in the chat for Cool, man. Nate Dogg beeprel. You like all y’all? Your questions have been, Having you been. you. you. participating. Cool, man. Nate Dogg Beeprel. You like all y’all your questions have been fantastic and let us touch on some really juicy subjects, please come back and join us tomorrow where we’re going to talk to Jeff Morrow who works, where slugfest games on Red Dragon in If you’re familiar with that. He and I also go way back like Toby and I do back to the Bay Area, magic scene, a number of years ago and so that should be a fun time. Thanks very much for joining and everyone have a great day.