Judge Academy > Transcript – September First Week: Rules Lessons From Across Games

Transcript – September First Week: Rules Lessons From Across Games


12:00:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
Good morning, and welcome back to Judge Academy First Week series for September today, we have with us a very special guest. If any of you have been around for a little while you might recognize this guy, it’s Jeff Morrow.

12:00:16 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:00:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
Jeff, and I go way back. If any of y’all were here yesterday to see my interview with way back, Jeff. If any of y’all were here yesterday to see my interview with way back,

12:00:23 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:00:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
to see my interview with way back. If any of you were here yesterday to see my interview with Toby Elliott me and Jeff go back that far as well. I you know, I’ve like as Toby and I talked about yesterday, he first certified me in 2004 and in those days we were like Jeff and I were both working ptqs in Northern California together. So that’s so we go. When they go, we go back, we can’t Jeff, go ahead and introduce yourself and talk a little bit about where you’ve been and where you’re at to our audience here.

12:00:50 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Okay. All right, hello. Hello judges. Um, yeah, I’m Jeff Morrow. Um, known to many judges as Jaymo. I became a judge back in. I think it was oh, three like a bit a bit before Daniel here. But

12:01:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
And I was 18, so I couldn’t have gone too much earlier.

12:01:10 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Yeah, so so let’s see. Um, I was judge until about 2016. I I was yeah, kind of a kind of fixture on on the, you know, Grand Prix and pro tour circuit for a little while there. Um I you know, head judge some grand prize. I I actually late in my career. I get to head judge a pro tour as well that was that was loads of fun. Um, I was

12:01:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right on.

12:01:35 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Um, I was during my time as a judge, I was for several years in charge of testing policies and procedures. So, so I was in charge of a team that overhaul the in particular, the level three testing process So, so that was, that was good. We were trying to generate more trust in the process and and, you know, getting people think that it wasn’t think that it wasn’t just, you know, friends. It is, of course that always an open question whether we actually succeeded at that goal. I know that this is a debate that is ongoing even now. But that’s, that’s what I worked on during my time as a high level judge. Um, now the main thing that well, I do some computer programming also, but my, the main thing I do and the main thing, my main gig for the past eight years or so, is I am president of slugfest games. We make And and, you know, getting people think that it wasn’t just, you know, people picking their friends. It is, of course that always an open question whether we actually succeeded at that goal. I know that this is a debate that is ongoing even now. But that’s, that’s what I worked on during my time as a high level judge. Um, now the main thing that well, I do some computer programming, also, but my, the main thing I do and the main thing, my main gig for the past eight years or so, is I am president of slugfest games. We make various board and card games, including you. You may have heard of the, the Red Dragon in that’s, that’s us, and so, so today. Yeah, that’s, that’s what I’m doing. And, and I was invited Here to talk about the rules experience and how it relates.

12:02:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
There you go.

12:02:58 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:02:59 pm – Daniel Lee:
That’s exactly right. So As so as Jeff mentioned, like, you know, back, he’s been a fixture on the on the Grand Prix circuit for, and, and even got to hedge of pro tour. That’s awesome. Actually, I don’t think I knew that prior to this and that’s super exciting. So as so, since this is a today’s topic is supposed to be rules. You mentioned you know being in charge of like the L3 process. Did you have any input when it came to the the Level? Three tests? That that were involved was that part

12:03:31 pm – Jeff Morrow:
the not really, um, the I I was in

12:03:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
your Correct.

12:03:39 pm – Jeff Morrow:
charge mostly of the interview process. Now, we did we did talk about what,

12:03:41 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:03:43 pm – Jeff Morrow:
you know, we did, talk about how to do, how to administer the tests, you know, whether the passing score should change or you know, we talk about some stuff like that. But in terms of the actual Rule, you know test content and such no, I actually wasn’t super involved

12:04:03 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:04:04 pm – Jeff Morrow:
with that.

12:04:05 pm – Daniel Lee:
Fair enough. But as you know as a high level judge, you did need to study and learn the rules really well. I was curious if you had a, if you

12:04:15 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:04:17 pm – Daniel Lee:
remember any any tips or tricks, or any, kind of specific things that you that were particularly notable, when it came to when, like, how you were learning the rules and how you got better at that, up to the point of

12:04:30 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:04:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
being trusted to hedge approach to her,

12:04:34 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Yeah. So So the thing about that is and and you see you should you should bring Toby back on the stream to talk about

12:04:42 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh no.

12:04:42 pm – Jeff Morrow:
this because the main, the main what I was I was never Eric and and you and other people who have worked with me. Are Are you, you will? recall that I was kind of known for not being super strong on the rules now, I was, I was fine, I could pass

12:05:03 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:05:05 pm – Jeff Morrow:
the test, I could, you know, not just blow calls left and right on the floor, I could pass the test, I could, you know, not just blow calls left and right on the floor, but I did struggle with that and the I could pass the test, I could, you know, not just blow calls left and right on the floor. And the main I learned was by, you And the main I learned was by, you

12:05:13 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:05:15 pm – Jeff Morrow:
know, studying the rules playing know, studying the rules playing more and and Toby yelling at me. That. So so yeah, it wasn’t. When I finally, you know, when when I did pass the test it wasn’t you know it wasn’t flying colors, let’s say that way, right? But it was fine.

12:05:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
All right.

12:05:36 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Um yeah study and then playing some and then you know, judging enough to see Some oddball cases.

12:05:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, fair enough. I know that, you know there’s this common mantra that like reading the comprehensive rules isn’t like a good way to study the comprehensive rules, right? Because

12:05:58 pm – Jeff Morrow:
I mean, I did that but but yeah, I don’t know that that would work for everyone.

12:06:06 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, absolutely not one. Hmm, okay. And the point I was going to make there was um there are certain rules that you just never know exist until they come up.

12:06:15 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:06:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
So like I I an example off top my head is, you know, a lot of folks will learn the layers and later like they know where to find layers of continuous effects and even a step

12:06:25 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:06:26 pm – Daniel Lee:
further. They may know about dependencies, they may know about herb, organ Blood, Moon that interaction but you

12:06:31 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:06:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
almost never hear about what happens with a dependency loop. Until someone gives you that scenario and points out the problem with it,

12:06:38 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:06:39 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:06:40 pm – Jeff Morrow:
One, one of the things that I did, um, I I did, I did read the comp rules but I made her, I made a rule for myself in my head that if I read a rule and I didn’t know where it applied, I would, I would go find an example.

12:06:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
There you go. Yeah, that’s a great idea.

12:06:58 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Are and and, you know, write it down or something like that.

12:07:02 pm – Daniel Lee:
That reminds me a little bit of a, There was a, a bit of a rules practice thing that I want. I heard it from Joe Klopcs, I’m I, so I, I will give credit there as as the person I heard it from. But if you think about cryptic command and how it’s got the four different modes, right? And it’s important that the modes are executed in the order they are. And so the the exercise is can you come up with a scenario where reversing the order of each pair of possible modes matters? So great example is if you choose the Counter Draw mode on it, Then come up with a scenario where your casting crypto command with the counter drama modes and if it if it were reversed the outcome of that scenario is different.

12:07:46 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Withdrawal accounting. Right.

12:07:48 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. So the the go-to example on that one would be, I have two cards in my hand. One is a bane fire which, as if X’s or no, sorry not being far. A demon fire which says If it’s hell bent. It’s uncounterable if you’re health benefits on Counterable, so you go, I cast Demonfire, Hold priority, cash, cryptic command targeting it, with counter, drum modes, Counter draw doesn’t like it, won’t counter it and then I’ll draw a card. Whereas if it was draw counter, I draw a card and then it would counter because I’m no longer held that. Yeah, so that that idea of like come up with it like find an example of this particular interaction. Like it kind of fits that that there as well.

12:08:27 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:08:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
So, let’s so let’s talk. So let’s get this into your. Let’s talk a little bit about your work with Slugfest. So you mentioned our red dragon in. Can you give Let’s assume someone has never played Red Dragon in before sell it to them?

12:08:40 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Sure the Red dragon in is the jokey card game about what the adventure is do after the adventure. So you’ve already you’ve already gone off to the dungeon and you know, slaying the dragon or whatever. It was you had to do. Now you’re back in the tavern and healed up cleaned up and partying with your adventuring buddies. So, you’re fortitude starts at 20 and goes down as you rough house with your buddies your alcohol content starts at zero and goes up as you as you knock back a few if those meat or cross. You pass out and you’re out of the game. If you run out of gold, the tavern kicks you out and you’re out of the game. Last adventure standing wins. It is it is a fun jokey, it is. If you know the difference between like euro games and Ameritrash this game is about as a merit rashes. They come and it’s great and it’s fun. And if you like stab your buddy games, this this game is for you.

12:09:31 pm – Daniel Lee:
Excellent. There’s a there is a YouTube video I have seen. That’s a it’s a ameritrash versus euro games and the ameritrash one is like Rule 20 dice.

12:09:41 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Oh, your CD. Yeah. Pro zd’s video.

12:09:43 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:09:44 pm – Jeff Morrow:
That thing is amazing.

12:09:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, exactly.

12:09:46 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Oh my God, I love

12:09:48 pm – Daniel Lee:
It’s hilarious. I we played all the time at my house because it’s just hilarious and I I really appreciate that. The a lot of the responses to that

12:10:02 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Magic. Know that video that video

12:10:05 pm – Daniel Lee:
one are like oh haha that America

12:10:07 pm – Jeff Morrow:
That video is brilliant.

12:10:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
Trash game is so silly haha.

12:10:13 pm – Jeff Morrow:
We just go big.

12:10:15 pm – Daniel Lee:
Haha. And then people just kind of sit there and go.

12:10:18 pm – Jeff Morrow:
does that too now actually

12:10:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
I’m pretty sure I played that you’re okay. I think I have it on my shelf. It’s pretty accurate. It’s made it to the point where any

12:10:35 pm – Jeff Morrow:
I would. It’s so the main, the main thing that

12:10:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
game that has victory points in it.

12:10:39 pm – Jeff Morrow:
the main things, that, that sort of make things a

12:10:42 pm – Daniel Lee:
My my household will only ever say

12:10:43 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Your euro game versus ameritrashes randomness.

12:10:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
victory points, Big 30 points.

12:10:47 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Although that’s not big one. The for most gamers, the big difference between eurogame and, and,

12:10:51 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:10:53 pm – Jeff Morrow:
you know, doing these ameritrash is whether or not you can directly target people in a euro game typically can’t because they are designed for German families, where one sibling will attack the other and they’ll get upset and go to their room and not play in game. Night is ruined and so, yeah, in most most euro games it is almost

12:11:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
That’s amazing. Okay. So and and so on that point, the the when you call it the ameritrash version that’s because is that because there’s some element of randomness to it,

12:11:19 pm – Jeff Morrow:
impossible to directly attack someone

12:11:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, interesting. Okay.

12:11:23 pm – Jeff Morrow:
in fact. And and when, when it’s allowed, it’s allowed in very limited ways someone, in fact. And and when, when it’s allowed, it’s allowed in very limited ways like think the, the someone, in fact and and when, when it’s allowed, it’s allowed in very limited ways like think the the someone, in fact. it’s allowed, it’s allowed in very limited ways like think the the asteroids and in fact. allowed, it’s allowed in very limited ways like think the, the asteroids think the, the asteroids and That that’s

12:11:32 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:11:32 pm – Jeff Morrow:
That that’s, That that’s, that’s actually a little more than typical, you know. the euro allows, whereas

12:11:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
I’m thinking like the the bandit in Settlers of Catan.

12:11:43 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Yeah. it gets in a hero game.

12:11:44 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:11:48 pm – Jeff Morrow:
in a hero game. in a hero game. Whereas typically in, you know, these ameritrash games I you can, you know, I I play a card it. It punches you, right? Like and I’m specifically choosing

12:11:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
Mmm. Yeah.

12:12:02 pm – Jeff Morrow:
people to punch and in certain game groups that leads to Nasty arguments.

12:12:08 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:12:10 pm – Jeff Morrow:
And but, but in other games, it’s like we we joke and we laugh and we, we have a good time. But, but yes, this, that that’s for me, that’s the main differences. Can you target someone? So games, like Red Dragon in Munchkin things, things like that, you know, stab your buddy, kind of, kind of games, you know,

12:12:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
The gathering say.

12:12:33 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Because it’s kind of it but yes multiplayer magic under. This definition would sort of count as an American trash but that’s I think most gamers would find that classification. A little weird also.

12:12:46 pm – Daniel Lee:
also, because that usually that’s to describe it Board game as opposed to, just a purely, a pure card game, like some folks would still distinguish between those two and like and Red

12:12:56 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:12:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
Dragon in gets a little closer to the board industry, you do have your own little board there, where you’re keeping track of your you’re keeping track of your like you’re fortitude and you’re, you’re booze level and whatnot, right? So um, okay cool. So and if I, if I recall correctly, there was a there was some manner of a gambling round in the in Red Dragon

12:13:18 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Yeah, yeah. So

12:13:19 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:13:20 pm – Jeff Morrow:
So, the way it works is the various, the various cars, you play can do things like, you know, punch your opponents, you know, people drinks. One of the things you you can do is, is gamble, which is sort of like attacking their gold, right? So so yeah. You you, the way the way gambling works is, if somebody starts around gambling on their turn, everybody has to anti a coin. You go around playing gambling cards until until one player, plays a card and everybody else passes. And that then that person wins the pot. So it is. So the interesting thing there is, yeah, it’s basically an attack on people’s gold. Um, as you know, from magic gaming life, tends to not be that great in a game of magic because, you know, you don’t win if you get to 40 life, you lose, if you get to zero and it’s the same thing with

12:14:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
Well, fell at our sovereign would like to would like to interrupt you for a moment.

12:14:19 pm – Jeff Morrow:
A fair. Fair enough. Yes. Because every every every like rule about magic is broken by some card. Yes, but but point though is

12:14:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
Exactly right.

12:14:27 pm – Jeff Morrow:
But but point though is But but point though, is you don’t, you don’t win if you get a lot of gold, right? You just lose, you

12:14:30 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:14:31 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:14:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Mm-hmm.

12:14:36 pm – Jeff Morrow:
But yeah, that’s if you haven’t

12:14:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
So yes.

12:14:37 pm – Jeff Morrow:
played it, go play it. It’s great.

12:14:41 pm – Daniel Lee:
so you, so you mentioned earlier that you were the president of Slugfest games so so

12:14:46 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:14:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
So so what how would you best describe your role when it came to the creation of Red. Dragon Inn.

12:14:53 pm – Jeff Morrow:
A creation. I was not around during the creation of the Red Dragon Inn. So, um,

12:14:57 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:14:58 pm – Jeff Morrow:
founders of slugfest games are currently in sunfest games. One of the one of the founders has come back as a contractor to do writing for us.

12:15:10 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:15:12 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Jeff. However, I was not actually involved with the creation of the game.

12:15:17 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:15:17 pm – Jeff Morrow:
with the creation of the game. Basically, the Founders were, were some friends in upstate New York, who, who decided to start this company and make some silly card games Red. Dragon Inn was not their first game. They, they did others others first, but Red Dragon, Inn has turned out to be the most successful. Like I said, All the Founders have gone on to other things. Now, I came on board around the Red Dragon in three

12:15:47 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:15:47 pm – Jeff Morrow:
So, so Kaylin from that set was the first character that I designed but, but in addition to that because I was a magic judge at the time, this was around, 2000 a 2009 somewhere around there, that I started being involved with the, with the company. And so, in addition to some design help, I also Rewrote their rules document. Basically, I made it that what they had was was okay but it was a little, you know, it was a little vague in some spots. It was there was some cases that didn’t really cover very well. I mean those are familiar with the history of magic, you know? No, no, this as well, right? The same thing happened with magic right between little, you know, it was a little vague in some spots. It was there was some cases that didn’t really cover very well. I mean those are familiar with the history of magic, you know? No, no, this as well, right? The same thing happened with magic right between all the

12:16:34 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:16:35 pm – Jeff Morrow:
just It was just hacks on top of hacks, on top of hacks. And then what was it 99 that the sixth edition.

12:16:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
Sixth edition. Yeah.

12:16:42 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Okay stop.

12:16:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
The famous sixth edition overhaul.

12:16:45 pm – Jeff Morrow:
right, we’re doing this all, and so

12:16:46 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:16:47 pm – Jeff Morrow:
We’re doing this all and so that that’s kind of what I did with with the Red Dragon Inn. I I rewrote the rule book, I preserved as much existing functionality as I could. I made timing a little more, you know, strict basically I sort of introduced the stack to the Red Dragon in without without specifically calling it that and and it doesn’t it doesn’t apply quite as cleanly to the Red Dragon Inn is it as it does to magic although you could argue that in 1999 it didn’t apply super cleanly to all cases and magic either.

12:17:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right, we’re just been used to it for 20 years.

12:17:23 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Right. Yeah.

12:17:23 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:17:24 pm – Jeff Morrow:
So but but yeah that that’s what I did that was around 0809 Fast forward some to two thousand fourteen and I bought the company from the remaining founder. Who is now doing artificial intelligence research? Getting a getting a PhD in that. So that’s cool.

12:17:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Well, alright.

12:17:48 pm – Jeff Morrow:
And but since then, the, the company is only only a few people, right? This is not a this is not 30 person juggernaut of. Well, it’s in the gaming industry. 30 People is a juggernaut. So,

12:18:01 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:18:02 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:18:02 pm – Daniel Lee:
Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah.

12:18:04 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Just yeah, you know what I’m talking

12:18:05 pm – Daniel Lee:
I mean Yeah.

12:18:05 pm – Jeff Morrow:
about. So so we’re just a few people. So my job is everything from running the business doing contracts doing art direction. Writing rules play testing, I’m in charge of everything that isn’t specifically assigned to someone else.

12:18:23 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:18:24 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:18:25 pm – Daniel Lee:
But yeah, fair enough.

12:18:25 pm – Jeff Morrow:
That’s a lot.

12:18:26 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:18:27 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:18:27 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:18:27 pm – Jeff Morrow:
So let’s, just this week. Just this.

12:18:31 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:18:32 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Here’s what I’ve done Here’s what I’ve done made some.

12:18:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
Go for it.

12:18:33 pm – Jeff Morrow:
I’ve made some pdfs for I’ve ordered a reprint of the Red Dragon in one and two, because we’re running low. So I made new PDFs to send off to our manufacturer and I wired some money to them say Hey print my stuff. I’ve been working on the rule books for Tales from the Red Dragon in our upcoming dungeon crawl game. I brainstormed some card ideas for a new game. That will be kickstarting later this year that I’m not going to talk about yet.

12:19:05 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:19:05 pm – Jeff Morrow:
I I wrote several Kickstarter updates. You get the idea. I’m not gonna just actually say my whole week but yeah that I’m doing

12:19:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
That’s okay.

12:19:15 pm – Jeff Morrow:
all sorts of whatever needs to be

12:19:17 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:19:18 pm – Jeff Morrow:
done for running this company.

12:19:20 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, right on. Um, we had it, We had a couple of comments in the chat. Eric Levine mentioning that he the, The Co-op Tech Builders been off battle for Great Port that we talked a little bit about before before we went live here. Also sympathizing with the dang, asteroids deleting his plants in terraforming, Mars,

12:19:43 pm – Jeff Morrow:
You know.

12:19:43 pm – Daniel Lee:
It’s it’s funny because I’ve actually never played terraforming words. It’s probably the game that I have heard the most about that. I still haven’t yet played and I need to

12:19:50 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Wow. Yeah, you should.

12:19:52 pm – Daniel Lee:
I I want to, I want to for what it’s worth something like I’m sitting here, like no, heck with that game, but then we also had some some folks being like, Oh, why can’t my spells resolve in batches? What happened to the damage prevention? Step.

12:20:05 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Here on the stack, man. I remember damage on the stack. That was so

12:20:08 pm – Daniel Lee:
Mag Fanatica so much worse. When that went away.

12:20:11 pm – Jeff Morrow:
That yeah. No. That was that was like the trick. That was like the how you, you know tricked That. No. That was that was like the trick. No. That was that was like the trick. tricked tricked. That. Yeah. That was like the, how you, you know, That was like the how you, you know tricked. Your noob That yeah. Yeah. That was like the, how you, you know, That was like the how you, you know tricked. Your noob That yeah. the trick. That was like the how you, you know tricked your noob opponents That yeah. No. That was that was like the trick. That was like the how you, you know, tricked your noob opponents was very That. No. That was that was like the trick. No. That was that was like the trick. That was like the how you, you know, tricked your noob opponents was very

12:20:28 pm – Daniel Lee:
Uh yeah. M10 rules change. change. I think was Uh yeah. That was the that was the M10 rules change. I think was the 10th edition or it was around there. Uh yeah. rules change. change. I think was the 10th edition or it was around there.

12:20:39 pm – Jeff Morrow:
I they’re all, they’re all a blur to me. Now I I will say so, so

12:20:41 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:20:44 pm – Jeff Morrow:
So I I So I I have played a bit of magic lately. lately. I don’t, I don’t play very much anymore but I am. So once in a while when when So I I have played a bit of magic lately. I don’t I don’t play very much anymore but I am. So once in a while when when there’s like you know what a wrong number of people at my games night, you know, and two people end up out the the two people rather than starting like some euro game that isn’t very good for two my friend and I will sometimes bust out some of my old Grand Prix packs and just play some sealed. So so I’ve done I’ve done some of

12:21:10 pm – Daniel Lee:
There you go. All right.

12:21:12 pm – Jeff Morrow:
that recently which is about the only magic I’ve played or thought about in the past several years.

12:21:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
Fair enough. And it’s it’s funny too because like I I famously those you that have seen the folks that have seen me on the discord know that I play as much pioneers. Fair enough. because like I I famously those you that have seen the folks that have seen me on the discord know that I play as much pioneers. I can get my hands on because Lotus Field is a very fun deck and I like playing a lot of spells in one turn. Go figure. The guy says, the guy that famously played Storm, a play storm in every format that he can land. Yeah, sure outside of that though, like, I’ve got my one or two commander decks and then but but then like you like it’s sealed. Every once in a while like all of my housemates play magic and so sometimes I’ll be like, Oh hey I have this here draft booster box of adventures of forgotten realms. Let’s play some sealed and like several of my roommates are more focused on the like they like to build the deck and tell a story out of it, which is a really neat thing

12:22:04 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:22:05 pm – Daniel Lee:
which would I think that ties in here really well because that’s that’s the whole like that’s the vibe of Red Dragon in, right? Is like you’re getting drunk and ready with your friends after you’ve gone and done your adventuring work for the day kind of a thing, right?

12:22:16 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:22:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
um, So, it’s But yeah, it’s funny. I was just thinking that the like the rules. Haven’t the magic rules in particular haven’t gone through any like huge shifts, really? Like I was about to say, they haven’t

12:22:29 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:22:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
done done I think that was probably the last big rules. Like all right, Here’s a big deal that a lot of people are gonna get wrong because people are not used to it working this way. Um with the only real exception of

12:22:41 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:22:43 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. But then they’re like add stuff all the time which is also a good point, right?

12:22:49 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Yeah, but so interestingly with magic once you have a good rule set and this is this is kind of the case with the Red Dragon in as well. Once you have a good rule set you can actually do lots of stuff within that rule set. Right? A lot of a lot of new mechanics on on, you know, in magic, for example, are there a trigger or they’re a

12:23:08 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:23:09 pm – Jeff Morrow:
replacement effect, right? And that and they can write out in the in the fact and in the rules, Okay? This this keyword means this and it’s all based on previous rules and once you have a good rule set, That works really well.

12:23:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, I think a great example of this would be when they introduced Ward and Strix Haven, right? Word is literally just a, so, it’s like Ward number, right? So like Ward Three or something, and it says Okay cool. When this creature is a target of a spell ability, your opponent controls counter unless they pay three.

12:23:42 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Oh, okay sure. I sorry, I don’t know new sets but

12:23:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
No, that’s okay. But that’s I, I suspected that might be the case. And that was actually the point is that now Bam. I don’t think I need to explain.

12:23:51 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Now, right now you’ve explained it to me in in three seconds and it works.

12:23:54 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:23:55 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:23:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. So be, it’s because and Toby and I talked a little bit about this yesterday because the, the Magic comprehensive rules are set up in this like, permissive structure where he’s like.

12:24:06 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:24:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
So the way, the way that Toby put it was you start out not being able to do anything in the game of magic. The comprehensive rules is a list of

12:24:12 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:24:14 pm – Daniel Lee:
the things you can do in certain circumstances. And so once you’ve built that framework where it’s like, okay you can’t do anything except when the rules allow it, then then it’s just a okay, let’s add a rule that say Now, in this circumstance you can do this thing like, in a super reductive way. That’s like sort of how you do so

12:24:31 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:24:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
So now, even just adding ward. It’s like, Okay, when you see this, this is what that means. And it already exists in that framework. We already have triggers. We already have paying costs as a trigger resolves and things like that. Like there’s it’s not a new concept but it is a new terminology or a new way. Applying things. So, like I think one of the bigger changes in recently would have been in Innistrad, Midnight Hunt and in Australian crimson vowel last year when they added day bound and nightbound as these, like, statuses that the game now has, It’s not the first time we’ve had a

12:25:11 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Oh, okay.

12:25:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
game status.

12:25:12 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:25:12 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah so because we had you know cities blessing was a thing out of the monarch was the thing but now daybound night down. So the the game is neither until a day-bound or nightbound permanent enters the battlefield or an effect says it is now day. And which case now it’s going to be day or night for the rest of the game. And if you remember back to the original Innistrad where it was if you if a player cast, no spells it would go from day to night and

12:25:40 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:25:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
And so then if a player cast two spells it goes from night to day

12:25:44 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:25:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
and so it was a, it was a is a game wide way of keeping track of that. So, it’s a similar idea to.

12:25:51 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:25:52 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:25:52 pm – Jeff Morrow:
So, the new, so the new cards basically give other ways to switch.

12:25:56 pm – Daniel Lee:
so the new cards, the new cards say that the really the biggest difference here in terms of like how the game actually progresses is if it is night and I cast a werewolf One of the new ones, it’s only one of the new ones it’s going to enter as that’s werewolf side.

12:26:14 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Oh, I I see. Okay, that’s that’s cool.

12:26:17 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. So it’s really neat and it also may they also tweaked it. This was this was a point of Yeah. may, they also tweaked it. This was, this was a point of contention, and that’s, it’s reasonable because it’s a, it’s a way that the rules are less predictable. Because previously, it was, if any player casts a spell during a turn, then nothing’s gonna transform the next turn, right? Or the, you’re not gonna go to night.

12:26:37 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:26:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
If so, like on your turn, I’ve got, if you’ve got a werewolf that I don’t want to transform to it’s night side and you go okay past the turn and I go end of turn brainstorm or something. Like now. Okay. Now it’s your your where what’s not

12:26:51 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:26:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
gonna transform gonna transform. They made it for day down and nightbound, it’s only that the active player is the only one that’s tracked.

12:27:00 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Okay, interesting.

12:27:00 pm – Daniel Lee:
So if I cast no spells on my turn and it’s day, it will become night on your turn, regardless of what you

12:27:06 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:27:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
play on my turn. And then on your turn, you can play two spells and make it become day again on my turn. So you still have a chance to interact with it. There’s a little bit less to keep track of

12:27:17 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:27:18 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:27:18 pm – Jeff Morrow:
You know, and they and but there’s yeah that’s that’s a good example. Because like, Good Good Rule sets they they take a lot of work. But if you do it right, you get a lot of design space out of them. And that’s I for any of your viewers who, you know, might be aspiring game designers or or already game designers, I know of at least a I know of at least a couple among the

12:27:38 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:27:38 pm – Jeff Morrow:
judge community. Um, yeah, you know. Get get your rules good and it will it will help. It will help you in the future.

12:27:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
Cool. Um, so so to that note, so you I like you said you had to like your brought in and you overhauled the rules and like you made that you made a framework like this for for Red Dragon. And so can you can you give us a little bit of idea of how how that looked how that worked?

12:28:03 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Um so well so the answer is yes, maybe because that was a long time ago and I don’t remember a lot of it, but

12:28:11 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:28:12 pm – Jeff Morrow:
But the, what?

12:28:12 pm – Daniel Lee:
Push Push pushing Push pushing it out of your mind, right?

12:28:15 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Yeah. I know what I can say is that the when I when I came on board, the Red Dragon in rules were basically One sheet of 10 by 10 paper that fit in the box front and back, that was it. Now it’s now it’s 30 by 10, full Z folded into, you know, six pages. So so anybody who plays Red Dragon and thinks the Rule book is too long, you have me to thank for it.

12:28:41 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:28:42 pm – Jeff Morrow:
I but there were So, so various things weren’t very well explained and There were timing. Okay, let’s talk about, let’s talk about two things, actually.

12:28:55 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:28:57 pm – Jeff Morrow:
the founders of Slugfest had a had a philosophy that is Mostly good. Except when it’s not what that.

12:29:06 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:29:07 pm – Jeff Morrow:
So their philosophy was Put as much stuff as possible onto the cards, rather than into the rules

12:29:16 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:29:16 pm – Jeff Morrow:
rules. And that works in a lot of cases in the case in particular for gambling that led to some really weird situations because some some of the stuff you need to know to properly do a round of gambling was on the cards but some of it you had to look in the rules.

12:29:33 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:29:34 pm – Jeff Morrow:
I ended up moving. Away from the everything on the cards philosophy. Because once you have the phrase Start a round of gambling, right? There’s enough of a trigger to the reader to say, Okay. If I don’t know what this thing is, I better look for that in the rules. And of course, you’re not what a

12:29:53 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:29:55 pm – Jeff Morrow:
round of gambling is and how it

12:29:56 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:29:56 pm – Jeff Morrow:
works. So in fact, we wrote if you’re interested in learning more about that, there’s actually a blog post on the Slugfest Games website about the the changes to the wording of the card gambling, I mean, and and that whole philosophy. So that was one. That was one issue in source of unclarity. Then there were there were an awful lot of timing issues there was there. There were situations in which Where the game allowed? What we call a race to the table?

12:30:36 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:30:37 pm – Jeff Morrow:
The race race to the table is what we call any situation where there’s a game state where two players are trying to be the first person to slam down a card, right?

12:30:48 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:30:49 pm – Jeff Morrow:
We try to avoid race to the table situations, right?

12:30:54 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:30:55 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Pretty much all the time, but to avoid race to the table situations you need. Fairly strict timing rules, and, and so, that’s where that’s where the stack in priority came in. So, so a game of the Red Dragon in now. Now, we don’t use those terms because we didn’t want to make the rules too pedantic and scary. But we

12:31:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
To you to use the board game nomenclature. You didn’t want them to be too crunchy.

12:31:23 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Yeah, exactly.

12:31:24 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:31:24 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Yeah. We do have a whole like, you know, several paragraphs in the rules now about timing, but they explained it in a way that says, Okay, if this happens do this, if this happens do this, and it doesn’t say the actual rule is which, which we don’t if we ever write a comp rules for the Red Dragon in which we’ve Batted back and forth the idea of this. But if we ever write a comp rules, it will, it will work kind of like, priority in magic, right? Where every step of the game. It’s like, Okay. Do you want to play something? Do you want to play something? Do you want to play something you want? But Okay, everybody passes. Okay, we move on to the next step. Do you want to play something? Do you want to play, right? So, You that? That’s how that’s how it works in magic. That’s technically how it works in the Red Dragon in as well. But you can’t play a game like that,

12:32:08 pm – Daniel Lee:
hmm, no, for sure one

12:32:09 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:32:11 pm – Daniel Lee:
And anyone that’s played a game of commander, like sometimes that is important for that to happen. Someone’s like I’m going to cast the spell that’s hard to interact, let’s say supreme verdict or something, right? So only certain people are only going are gonna be able to do something but it’s kind of important because if one person is like oh unsubstantiate return that spell to your hand then like okay well now I don’t need to like save my creatures or whatever like so that so there are certain

12:32:35 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:32:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
situations where you can default back into that but you don’t use it for it.

12:32:40 pm – Jeff Morrow:
There are certain situations where magic players can default back into that.

12:32:46 pm – Daniel Lee:
Correct. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. That’s

12:32:48 pm – Jeff Morrow:
I don’t think that statement holds for your average Red Dragon in player, so

12:32:52 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay, I would I would I would

12:32:53 pm – Jeff Morrow:
So, we

12:32:53 pm – Daniel Lee:
I would I would I would absolutely believe that.

12:32:55 pm – Jeff Morrow:
So we we do, we do explain it more like what the timing rules in the, you know, in the document that you get when you buy the box, what it says essentially is you if two people want to do something at the same time.

12:33:12 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:33:12 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Take it back, do it in. Turn order right now.

12:33:15 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:33:16 pm – Jeff Morrow:
What? That is the equivalent of what we just talked about, right?

12:33:19 pm – Daniel Lee:
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

12:33:20 pm – Jeff Morrow:
but it’s explained in A, in a Squishier, like simpler way because yeah, you can’t.

12:33:27 pm – Daniel Lee:
For sure.

12:33:29 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Hey, you can’t tell, you can’t tell an average if you if you tell Red, Dragon input. Well, even a magic player, if you tell somebody playing a game, at the way you have to do, it is go around the table every time anyone wants to do anything, do you want to play? Do you want to play then they will quickly lose interest in your game?

12:33:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. Well, and and my point for being at that situation is that like, even in magic, where those situations can and do come up, especially in Commander, which is a little bit more of an analog just because there’s multiple players and

12:33:56 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:33:58 pm – Daniel Lee:
Like, even then like, Yeah, that’s a thing that can be defaulted to, but you do not need that for 90 95% of commander things because it’s gonna be like, I play this. And even if there is like, stack interaction, we’re like, I play this. I counter it. Okay, like that’s it. There you go. You didn’t need to go like, Oh, wait, did you want to do something before? Like, No, you don’t, you don’t need to bother defaulting to that.

12:34:19 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:34:20 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:34:20 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:34:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. And it’s a So it’s it’s interesting that I having been immersed in the magic ecosystem. For as long as I have, it is interesting to hear that. It’s interesting to hear the argument that there may not. It may not actually be all that helpful to publish a comprehensive rules document, because I’ve lived in this world where of course there’s a comprehensive rules document.

12:34:49 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Well, of course you do, right?

12:34:50 pm – Daniel Lee:
That is it is up is kept up and it is like a travel. I remember gosh. back in, you know, back in when I was a young bright-eyed bushy-tailed teenager of a judge I remember it was like, Yeah, no. I’m gonna print out the comprehensive rules. It’s gonna be like 10 Point font. I’m gonna hole punch him. I’ll put it in this binder and then it got updated. Two months later. Like

12:35:16 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Yep. I had that for a little while like actually when I was studying for L3, I had that. But yes, it’s it changes.

12:35:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh wow.

12:35:23 pm – Jeff Morrow:
So so the reason we there’s been there’s been a bunch of internal debate whether we should do this, some people have asked for it. The problem is so. So as you know, well I don’t know if this is still the case, my information might be slightly out of date, but wizards of the coast Haze a full-time salaried employee. Just to maintain this document.

12:35:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, that just dunks is currently that right now.

12:35:52 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Oh, just is that now, I did not know

12:35:53 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:35:53 pm – Jeff Morrow:
that. That’s cool.

12:35:55 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:35:55 pm – Jeff Morrow:
No, that’s that’s great.

12:35:55 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:35:56 pm – Jeff Morrow:
And he’s great person for that job, but but this like, Slugfest. Slugfest does not have the resources to do that to pay a person just for that job that like, I mean, Red Dragon in his popular but nowhere near that level, right.

12:36:17 pm – Daniel Lee:
Nowhere near magic.

12:36:19 pm – Jeff Morrow:
One. Yeah, so if this was going to happen, yes. If we made it, we would have to maintain it and that job would most likely fall to this guy. Um, and you’ve already heard, you know what my average week looks like so.

12:36:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
That’s yeah.

12:36:36 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Now the other, thing magic needs comp rules because of the pro tour, right?

12:36:42 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:36:43 pm – Jeff Morrow:
of the pro tour, right? Magic needs comp rules because there were there because they decided to do High stakes tournaments. Right? Where you can’t. You cannot have a tournament ecosystem

12:37:06 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:37:07 pm – Jeff Morrow:
That that kind of an ecosystem, will collapse rapidly, right?

12:37:12 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:37:13 pm – Jeff Morrow:
So so yeah you need that. That’s the main reason why you need that. We don’t there isn’t a. There isn’t a Red Dragon in pro tour yet. No I

12:37:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
Has gonna say Yeah? Right.

12:37:25 pm – Jeff Morrow:
No and they’re probably won’t be because it’s really not that kind of game.

12:37:29 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:37:30 pm – Jeff Morrow:
But as a result of that we haven’t I’ve never quite as much as I want to as a, as a rule, the, you know, thinker right as a system thinker, right? As much as I do, want to write the The Bible of Red Dragon in Rules. I There’s better uses of my time, and I don’t mean just of a better uses of time for me personally, but better uses of time for slugfest games.

12:37:59 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:38:00 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Well, so yeah, it’s something we are still thinking about because, you know, there are, we keep running list of of cases, we find and things that are unclear or things that are legit. Rules holes, right? Like back in the back in the day is just after the sixth edition release. You know, magic had a couple of things where the really really serious rules Nerds knew that magic actually did actually have a couple I’m not sure that’s the case anymore. I guess I would have to ask Jess. But there are, there are definitely in the Red Dragon Inn. There are a couple of things that are Not really defined. Now, there are extremely rare, yay, right. So. So I don’t Again, we’ve avoided making the making the Bible but maybe it, maybe I’ll have to bite the bullet and do that someday. I don’t know. We’ll see.

12:38:57 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, fair enough and like it’s like it. It’s always. And I think folks, especially in magic, we’ve got this we are so used to the idea that every rules question has an answer and if you just dig through the Yeah, fair enough. it it’s always. It’s always. And I think folks, especially in magic, we’ve got this, we are so used to the idea that every rules question through the CR through the CR,

12:39:15 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:39:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
So it is, it is kind of interesting So it is, it is kind of interesting usually put it together. So it is, it is kind of interesting when you, when you compare. The experience of like a commander Friday night magic event. And like like, That. That is not necessarily an environment, especially when you consider like four people getting together to sling, some mat to. So, let’s link some cardboard around. Like, when you compare that to any other board game, those four people might play like if there’s a if there’s a weird thing they’re not quite sure how this interaction works in betrayal of House on the Hill. For example just to pull a board game out and they’re like Oh I don’t know

12:39:51 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:39:51 pm – Daniel Lee:
don’t know how that omen works with this situation. We’re in right now. That’s not particularly clear. They’ll figure it out and move on with their lives, right? But because we’ve got this because

12:39:59 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:40:02 pm – Daniel Lee:
we’ve had this thing. It’s almost like a a rules resource arms race a little bit. The fact that that resource exists means that everyone wants to use it, not everyone, everyone. But like a lot of people are certainly more inclined to be like well there’s got to be an answer because there’s an answer to most

12:40:17 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:40:18 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:40:19 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Here’s the thing, magic selects for that.

12:40:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, absolutely.

12:40:23 pm – Jeff Morrow:
right, so magic magic players are more likely to be that kind of gamer and magic judges are even more

12:40:32 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hold on.

12:40:32 pm – Jeff Morrow:
To be.

12:40:33 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hold on. Jeff are you telling me that magic judges might be huge nerds?

12:40:39 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Among other things.

12:40:40 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay, okay.

12:40:40 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Yes. And your whole viewer audience. Yes.

12:40:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
You did not insult a single one of them. I’m sorry y’all. Y’all are nerds. If you’re if you are watching a live stream of a judge content manager

12:40:57 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Judge. Rules. Then. Yeah. You

12:41:01 pm – Daniel Lee:
I yeah, might be a nerd. Yeah. Oh my gosh. We’re gonna start around. You might be a redneck version from the Jeff Foxworthy bit now man. Um But yeah, no, so you’re absolutely right that like it’s in it’s it’s one of those environments that kind of sustains itself, right? Like the fact that there is this competitive track, there is a competitive like especially you know with the recent premiere play premiere play system. That’s gone into effect with all these Rcqs that are happening like folks are taking them. Seriously, folks are trying to qualify for their regional championships and the regional championships are gonna be a serious journalism, serious prizes involved and then that feeds into the pro tour. So like, that’s a, there’s some real steaks. Eric says, What if you’re producing the live stream?

12:41:49 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:41:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
It’s like, Yeah, sorry, buddy, I don’t know what to tell you.

12:41:53 pm – Jeff Morrow:
so, so the thing of the thing about that, it’s it’s interesting to think about this because the same the same idea that, you know, made the made the comp rules of thing is the thing that made the judge program

12:42:09 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, absolutely.

12:42:09 pm – Jeff Morrow:
program, a thing, right? It’s you, you need, you need rules and you need people who know them and can, you know, arbitrate,

12:42:18 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, exactly.

12:42:18 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:42:20 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:42:20 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Magic, very complicated game.

12:42:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
It turns out if you didn’t, if you, if you didn’t know, I don’t have my binder anymore, just go funk. And just like here, here

12:42:28 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:42:29 pm – Daniel Lee:
weight of all this knowledge, right? Literal weight of it. Um, the small small side note, I remember back in those days like the 040506, because smartphones weren’t a thing yet. It’s so weird to think about the back of smartphones are relative. I relatively recent development but like so I remember that a couple of folks had Palm Pilots right like sort of the the proto mobile phones where it’s just kind of like a little pocket computer, right? And you could get a

12:43:02 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Yep. Rules.

12:43:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
You could get the comp rules, that were that size, and that what that would fit on something like that. I was like, man. That’s the, I wanted to, like, save up for that because like, 300 bucks or something. I was like, I want to save up for

12:43:12 pm – Jeff Morrow:
I think, actually, I I think I had

12:43:13 pm – Daniel Lee:
that. You had one.

12:43:16 pm – Jeff Morrow:
that, I, I can’t remember what device it was, but it was a pre it was before I had a cell phone.

12:43:22 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:43:23 pm – Jeff Morrow:
And, yeah, I I did, I can’t remember if it was a Palm Pilot or a Newton or a What? Whatever the heck. Thank you. I think it was a Palm Pilot. But, but yeah, I I had that

12:43:34 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:43:35 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:43:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
Um, oh yeah, that and uh, Eric Levine ads. Yeah, you can go find the judge. You had to go find the judge of the Palm Pilot before that we kept binders at the stage at the Comp

12:43:44 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Stage, so, I don’t know. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna be I’m gonna

12:43:45 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:43:48 pm – Jeff Morrow:
tell a judge story. My very first event, my very first

12:43:50 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:43:51 pm – Jeff Morrow:
event was World’s San Francisco. I was, I was a walk-up volunteer and tester at World, San Francisco. OH, 304 Whatever.

12:44:02 pm – Daniel Lee:
I thought it was before.

12:44:04 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Yeah, I think I think it was. Oh four I think.

12:44:06 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:44:07 pm – Jeff Morrow:
think. Um so

12:44:07 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:44:08 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Um so know, they They first asked me like why you know why I hadn’t worked with Toby, who was the you know, the guy in the area and I didn’t I didn’t know Toby yet and I I was like well well I sorry I knew Toby as the head judge of some tournaments I had been at but I didn’t know like I would

12:44:30 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:44:31 pm – Jeff Morrow:
like I would crash at his house like I would

12:44:35 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:44:35 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Right. So So first they asked me well they they wanted to make sure that I wasn’t like, you know on the outs with Toby and therefore shouldn’t be certified. But no no I just I I just came, you

12:44:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right. Exactly.

12:44:48 pm – Jeff Morrow:
know, I I had some time today and I’ve I’ve been interested in being a judge. So I thought maybe I’d, you know, volunteer, okay, cool. They threw a T-shirt on me and branded T-shirt on me and put me to work, my very first tournament was um, it was An Italian Legends Chinese. Fourth edition. Sealed event. Okay. so, so it was head judged by an L2 from China who was, who was testing for L3 and I I don’t know who it was and, and

12:45:26 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:45:30 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Relatively recent el3, Judge Ricardo testatory.

12:45:34 pm – Daniel Lee:
Hey Ricardo. Okay.

12:45:36 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Italian and in Chinese, right? So we put the Italian guy in the Chinese guy on, you know, Italian and Chinese, right? So we put the Italian guy in the Chinese guy on, you know,

12:45:41 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:45:42 pm – Jeff Morrow:
And then, and then they assigned me as well. Now first problem,

12:45:47 pm – Daniel Lee:
You speak in either Italian or

12:45:47 pm – Jeff Morrow:
First problem.

12:45:48 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:45:50 pm – Jeff Morrow:
That’s that. Are you that? Was not. That’s the problem.

12:45:55 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:45:55 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Problem is that the cards that they they got to bring to this event, We’re not Chinese fourth edition, they were Japanese. The problem is that the cards that they got to bring to this event, we’re not Chinese fourth edition, they were Japanese.

12:46:03 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, that’s not great. Okay.

12:46:06 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Oh, Right? So head judge at the assigned. Can’t actually read the cards himself because although to an American, these might look the same there. Wildly different language.

12:46:17 pm – Daniel Lee:
Wildly different. Oh, geez.

12:46:18 pm – Jeff Morrow:
So, so that’s problem.

12:46:19 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:46:20 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Number one, problem number two was that yeah, that I knew neither of these things and

12:46:27 pm – Daniel Lee:
None of the three languages turns out.

12:46:30 pm – Jeff Morrow:
And did not, um, and did not know sets well enough to be able to recognize cards by their And did not and did not know those sets well enough to be able to recognize cards by their picture.

12:46:37 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:46:38 pm – Jeff Morrow:
The vast majority of judge calls in this in this event that I was at work. Judge what’s this card, right? We had binders that we had the physical books of each card and when we got judge, what’s this card? And we didn’t know what it was. We took the book we flipped through it until we found the picture.

12:46:59 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:47:00 pm – Jeff Morrow:
And then we told the person, what the what the card was that was my first

12:47:03 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:47:05 pm – Jeff Morrow:
judging experience ever from there

12:47:08 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:47:08 pm – Jeff Morrow:
after after a couple of hours doing that I got shifted over to a team sealed event and that one that one

12:47:16 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:47:17 pm – Jeff Morrow:
went a little a little better.

12:47:19 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:47:19 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Still it was it was a pretty understaffed event. So yeah.

12:47:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
I would have been.

12:47:22 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:47:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
I would have been probably like a mirrored in dark steel fifth dawn.

12:47:28 pm – Jeff Morrow:
it was um, what was Yeah, I think it was mirrored. In fact, I think it was not fifth dawn, I think fifth Don was not out yet, it was mirror dark steel. Because there, the reason I remember

12:47:39 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh, okay. Okay.

12:47:42 pm – Jeff Morrow:
this is it the previous day before. I became a judge, I played in a GPT and actually Split in the finals of that GPT, which is the bet the only tournament I have ever done. Well, at it was like an, it’d be something person sealed event and I I took, I took second place. Yeah.

12:48:01 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:48:02 pm – Jeff Morrow:
The next day I became a judge via trial by fire and but but then at the end of the day, they did give me a test and I passed it. So

12:48:12 pm – Daniel Lee:
Right on.

12:48:12 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Yeah, Judge. What is this card?

12:48:16 pm – Daniel Lee:
Actual hard mode.

12:48:17 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Like it was rough.

12:48:21 pm – Daniel Lee:
It’s funny. We thought. So I also became a judge in 2004 and my, my very first event. I mentioned this with Toby yesterday because I had. So I had played in several ptq as I was actually pretty big on extended. I was my favorite format, I really liked having my nomads Encore target. My daru spiritualist an arbitrarily large number of times and then sacrificing it again that much life. So, So I played a fair amount of extended so I so I’d like met Toby I think in passing and that’s like, seeing the judges and like seeing what they do and I was like, man that’s actually kind of a neat, little gig. They got going on there. Um, so the first tournament I ended up working was the this is how I always remember that. It was like mirrored and dark steel fit on. Was coming out. That mirror didn’t come out in ’03 and then dark steel fit. Don came out and and early, and then mido for respectively because my first tournament that I worked was in September, and that was the champions of Kamigawa pre release.

12:49:16 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Oh, sure. And I

12:49:17 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:49:18 pm – Jeff Morrow:
I, Was I on staff for that one because I feel that might be where we met.

12:49:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
I, That probably is. Yes that that would make a lot of sense. I don’t remember specifically it was at this hotel that was like the second floor and it was like a long. It was like a, it was like a motel that you wouldn’t expect to have a conference room.

12:49:39 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Yeah, yeah yeah. Was this the place mirrors on the

12:49:41 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:49:42 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Was this the place mirrors on the ceiling?

12:49:43 pm – Daniel Lee:
No, that was in Sacramento.

12:49:43 pm – Jeff Morrow:
No, I That was in Sacramento, right?

12:49:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
That was a Sacramento. Ptq. Yeah. No. Oh,

12:49:47 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Right. So yeah. So so here’s another here’s another fun judge story. For those of you out there there was a there was a place that we had a tournament in Sacramento where where there were these So yeah. So yeah. So so here’s another here’s another fun judge story. a there was a place that we had a tournament in Sacramento where where tournament in Sacramento where where So yeah. So here’s another here’s another fun judge story. For those of you out there there was a there was a place that we had a tournament in Sacramento where where there were these Kind of alcoves in the ceiling which had mirrors on them to, you know, to bounce light around, to make the place seem more, you know, bright and so forth. But at certain seats at certain tables in the tournament you could literally look up and see your opponent’s hand. like this, this was so we noticed

12:50:15 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:50:17 pm – Jeff Morrow:
this, somebody somebody pointed it out and and we noticed this and and managed to move things to move things around. this. out and and we noticed this and and managed to move things to move things around.

12:50:30 pm – Daniel Lee:
You want to talk about keeping an eye out for nosy goblins. Oh man.

12:50:36 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Yeah, that’s

12:50:36 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:50:37 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:50:37 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, I will always remember. I even like I have like it’s and it was I was this hotel was like just north of Sacramento, proper? Like like there’s a there’s that

12:50:45 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:50:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
little bit. I will always remember that because of that, the, the mirrors, that’s why I was able to come like Nope, that was in Sacramento. I remember exactly where that is.

12:50:52 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Yeah, you say that I’ve totally remembering this.

12:50:55 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, for sure.

12:50:56 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Oh man. Wait, so nobody. Nobody cares. But we could we could go another hour on just these stories but

12:51:02 pm – Daniel Lee:
Absolutely. So um so since we’re we’ve got just about 10 minutes left here. So I wanted to make sure to give you a chance. If there was any other, if there are any other relevant bits when it came to, like sort of developing these this rules framework for Red Dragon Inn. If there was any other important bitsy felt like, you wanted to hit that, you haven’t had the chance to do yet.

12:51:26 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Let’s see. Now I think that’s about it for the Red Dragon Inn but as I said, you know before, like good rules, give you good design space. But in addition so I, you know, it’s not just the Red Dragon Inn, right? We make other games. I’m in charge of the rules for for all of them because that’s my particular area of expertise and The thing I’ve noticed so I’m writing a lot of a lot of this stuff lately because we’re like I said, we’re working on our dungeon crawl game which is a big and fairly complex beast and what I’ve what I’ve, what I’ve noticed about, all of this is that you need to

12:52:12 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:52:14 pm – Jeff Morrow:
There’s a particular skill that needs to be practiced when it comes to writing rules and making rule sets what you need to be able to do. And this is really weird and kind of hard. And some people really struggle with it for reasons. You know, that have something to do with how the brain works. I don’t know what you need to do is you need to be able to step out of your own brain. You basically need to hit the reset button on your own brain and say If somebody didn’t know anything about my game and read this, What would they think? What would they, how would they interpret it? What are all the ways they could misinterpret it?

12:52:54 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:52:55 pm – Jeff Morrow:
That’s, that’s the big one. Is you have to be able to word your rules in such a way that there is literally only one thing, it can mean. And that’s the hard part is not only telling people how to play, but Telling you uniquely telling them how to play, right?

12:53:16 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:53:17 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Telling them in a way basically, answer the questions, you know, they’re gonna ask Right. And usually what that means is, explain the rule and then put an example or explain the role and then Put it somewhere else again worded differently or something, right?

12:53:37 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:53:39 pm – Jeff Morrow:
But that that’s actually the hard part is being able to reset your brain and say I no longer know how to play this game that I’ve been spending, you know, the last month writing rules for right?

12:53:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah that yeah, that does not sound easy.

12:53:52 pm – Jeff Morrow:
No, it’s not hit the button. Think of all the ways that people could misinterpret and, you know, Sometimes it’s like okay maybe they’ll they’ll make a dumb mistake and think this, or maybe the more likely though, it’s you know, you wrote something that can mean two different things.

12:54:12 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, Mm-hmm.

12:54:14 pm – Jeff Morrow:
And you’ve got to be able to laser in on that and say Wait a minute they could think a or b here. I need to reword this so that they only think a

12:54:23 pm – Daniel Lee:
Mmm. Yeah, I’ve actually noticed that. That’s a, this is a, That’s a thing that I’ve noticed in a bunch of different rules, because we’re I’m, like I said, I mentioned me in my housemates. We have a, we’ve have a ton of board games. We’ve got one of those five by five cube shelves, that is full. And there’s several stacked on top. Like it’s there’s plenty of and so like we’ll run into the situation

12:54:40 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:54:43 pm – Daniel Lee:
where I’m like Oh yeah like this this card here interacting with this during this phase of the game like it’s kind of unclear that works and you’ll read the rules and you’re like This doesn’t answer my question at all and then you like, go to Google and like maybe you find a reddit thread that Liz like, oh, hey, yeah, no. Like We usually do it this way for this

12:55:03 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:55:04 pm – Daniel Lee:
reason or something. I sometimes you just don’t get an answer.

12:55:07 pm – Jeff Morrow:
So right. So so the game so and and you can really bad examples of this, the one examples of this, the one that I will say, really good example is the original printing, which I have of So right. you can point to really good and really bad examples of this, the one that I will say, really good example is the original printing which I have of glory to Rome. So

12:55:21 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:55:21 pm – Jeff Morrow:
So, so created by my my college roommate by my my college roommate from MIT. But that that rule book has answered every single question we have ever had about that game. So so learn Rome was actually created by my my college roommate from MIT. But that that rule book has answered every single question we have ever had about that game.

12:55:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
Wow, that is impressive.

12:55:37 pm – Jeff Morrow:
um, now A particularly bad example, I will point to is gloomhaven.

12:55:43 pm – Daniel Lee:
Oh no.

12:55:44 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:55:44 pm – Daniel Lee:
I have one of these games and it’s not the first one.

12:55:47 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Right. So so we became a running joke in our playgroup that that every single session of gloomhaven was gonna involve at least two rules lookups on on the Internet. And now to to the designers credit Isaac, you know, has been very good about answering questions on on the Internet, but it’s clear as you read through the roles of Blue Haven and read through Isaac’s responses to questions, Is this thing I talked about, with, make sure they can only interpret a and not as be, it’s clear that Isaac thought that he did that right thought that he did that but people were still thinking be right. So so the you know,

12:56:34 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:56:38 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Unfortunately, I mean I had an earlier printing of it so probably given the success of Gloomhaven probably they’ve, you know, cleared a lot of stuff by now but um but But um, but that’s the that’s the

12:56:46 pm – Daniel Lee:
Sure potentially. Yeah.

12:56:50 pm – Jeff Morrow:
kind of thing that You need to, you need to put the game in front of people and you need to do the thought experiment, yourself of

12:56:59 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:56:59 pm – Jeff Morrow:
okay, how what could they do wrong here? What what are they gonna think this okay. here? What what are they gonna think this is

12:57:07 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:57:08 pm – Jeff Morrow:
In particular, if you’re making games. So tales from the Red Dragon Inn is a dungeon crawl. It’s a little like it’s it’s kind of like gloomhaven but a lot of a lot of differences, but one of the things I’m made, sure to do in the rule book is to Strongly highlight and point to the differences, right? So so for example, in our game, you don’t get a penalty. If you make a ranged attack against an adjacent, Opponent right.

12:57:35 pm – Daniel Lee:
Okay. Yeah, that’s not even in the case in D&D.

12:57:39 pm – Jeff Morrow:
So, so if So so in in other games there is such a penalty. And so one of the things that we’re

12:57:48 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:57:51 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Making clear is that? Hey, there isn’t that we mentioned this at least. two or three times, of course, the

12:57:59 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:57:59 pm – Jeff Morrow:
rules. Because we we that’s one of the things we wanted to just treat as simpler than most of these other games. So anyway, that’s that’s a good example of rules. things we wanted to just treat as things we wanted to just treat as games. games. example of example of rules because we that’s one of the things we wanted to just treat as simpler than most of these other games. So anyway, that’s that’s a good example of if you’re, you know, Try to put yourself in your readers head as much as you can to say, What are they gonna, you know. What could they possibly think after they read this?

12:58:22 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, yeah. That’s a that’s a, that’s a really great point. And I think it’s it’s a testament that the magic comprehensive rules are written. I think, I think they’re written pretty well on the whole in that way,

12:58:35 pm – Jeff Morrow:
yeah, they’re pretty good that

12:58:36 pm – Daniel Lee:
right? There’s Yeah. Yeah. There’s and considering the absolute length of right? There’s Yeah. Yeah. There’s and considering the absolute length of the comprehensive rules. That’s one heck of a feat, right?

12:58:44 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Yeah, well that’s why they need a

12:58:44 pm – Daniel Lee:

12:58:46 pm – Jeff Morrow:
full-time person who’s job it is to do that.

12:58:49 pm – Daniel Lee:
Exactly. They pay a professional literally.

12:58:52 pm – Jeff Morrow:

12:58:52 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah. So awesome. Alright well um we are just about at a time here so we’re gonna go ahead and wrap up again. Thank you very much. Jeff for hanging out with me here for this hour and sharing your experience and your expertise with us.

12:59:06 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Awesome to see you.

12:59:07 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, it’s great to see you too. It was funny when because our streaming our streaming host here is Eric Levine and the three of us all liked Judge grew up together in those mid to mid to late oughts. So it’s really fun. It just for like, can we just like hang out here? Do we have to do? This was really funny. It’s just like Yeah, I miss these guys. It’s I and it’s really funny and I find myself like very fortunate to have had such smart people that I was able to like start my judge career around, it was really

12:59:42 pm – Jeff Morrow:
That was a, that was a heck of a team. I look back at

12:59:45 pm – Daniel Lee:
I know, right?

12:59:46 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Where Wherever like, like we ended up There were a couple of what I would call like important spots in in the judge program that ended up just like superstars all the way down. So Bay Area, like Wisconsin, Italy. Like they’re just a couple of really like that. That yeah, that ended up just being the like Dream team.

1:00:17 pm – Daniel Lee:
Well, that’s funny because you, you mentioned Wisconsin, all you do is mention Wisconsin. I’m like, Oh yeah, you’re talking about Chris Richter and Jason Lems.

1:00:24 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Thank you, Ingridland Young.

1:00:24 pm – Daniel Lee:
Yeah, right. We get exactly.

1:00:27 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Ingridland young.

1:00:27 pm – Daniel Lee:

1:00:28 pm – Jeff Morrow:
Yeah. So, so there were around that time. There were a few, a few, you know, it’s like a, like a culture plate in biology, right? You put in here, They grow.

1:00:38 pm – Daniel Lee:
And grew all of us. Lovely germs. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But alright cool. Well, thanks again, Jeff. It’s been great to spend time with you here. Thank you to all of our viewers out there. Hopefully, you’ve got some, you got some interesting insights here. And hey, if you want to go play Red Dragon, then you can find it at, probably at your local game store, and if they don’t have it, then bug them about it, because the fun game, I’ve, I’ve got a chance to play it and it is very much just like, Hey, yeah, get your, get your friend smashed and take their gold. It’s great, excellent. All right. Thanks very much, everyone that’s gonna do it for our first week for September, have a wonderful month and we will see you next and we’ll see you in October.